Episode Transcript
[00:00:33] Marc Millar: A warmest welcome to the Sports Bench Podcast. The podcast that brings you stories from sports stars and legends behind the scenes that you may not often hear from. I'm your host, Mark Miller, a retired professional footballer and now financial advisor in the Northeast of England. And in each and every conversation you'll learn specific factors pivotal to the success of our guests, their experience gained and lessons learned. And possibly through their stories, you'll also reflect on your own goals, aspirations, ambitions and beliefs. You're listening to episode one. So many thanks for that. And today I'm joined by Newcastle United's highly regarded football coach, Graham Jones. But before we engage with Graham, today's episode would certainly not have been possible without the continued support from one of our corporate partners, and in particular Billy Johnson and his team at Torro.
Torro create functional lifestyle leather accessories for those valuing quality, craftsmanship and design.
All their premium leather goods have a timeless style and come at affordable prices. And you can see the full range by visiting torro.co.uk, that's T O R R O.
And just lastly for thanks, a real big thank you indeed to Lee at Inheart Studios for his patience and dedication in putting the podcast together. Please now sit back, relax and enjoy the episode with extremely talented and respected Mr. Graham Jones.
[00:01:53] Marc Millar: So here you are today. Welcome to the sportsbench podcast. Once again, we're sitting with not only an exceptional player, but a fantastic coach.
As a player with a record starting around the northeast, playing at Doncaster, excelled at Wigan with over 30 goals in a season, received a six figure transfer to Scotland to play in the Premier League, the Saint Johnston and probably coaching's gain was at the end of a career that latterly was pretty much spoiled on both sides of the border by injuries, but certainly moving to coaching and a progression that just has been at a phenomenal rate. Starting at Swansea, having over a decade in the Premier League, involved with the number one country in the world, which is Belgium at the World cup, assisting England at the Euros, and initially as an interim manager, but certainly now coaches boyhood heroes after being born and bred in Gateshead. It's a huge podcast. Welcome to Graham Jones and certainly thanks to him for his time and sitting down with us for a chat.
[00:02:52] Graham Jones: Well, thanks for the intro, Mark, it's really good of you.
[00:02:55] Marc Millar: Certainly look, the CV is exceptional, Graeme, and it's nice to catch up with you again, but just getting into it straight away and immediately, there's a host of questions to ask, certainly focusing probably more so on the coaching side of things, but over your career highlights or standouts as a player and then probably as a coach to date.
Maybe one, maybe two from each. Just to give us an insight into how you see those kind of standout moments.
[00:03:22] Graham Jones: I think certainly as a player. Mark, obviously I went to Millwall 16, got released at 18.
I had five years in non league football, so that's seven years since I signed for Millwall where you're thinking, I wonder if I'll ever make my football league debut here. And it was a very uneventful league debut at Chester City away. We actually won one nil, but I hardly touched the ball and I remember thinking, wow, I'm out me depth here, but at least I've made my football league debut.
That was massive for me. I remember feeling ecstatic after it and then 13 games later I scored me first league goal against Rochdale.
That was a huge moment.
And then if I'm picking them out, I moved to Wigan for a club record fee of 150 grand at the time. That season I got three. 33 goals, 31 in the league and won the golden boot. We won league two, I got on the PFA team.
So that was a good moment.
I think they would be the standout moments if I was going to narrow.
[00:04:35] Marc Millar: Them down as a coach today. Graham, any one highlight that stands out. Look, I know it's unfair and we'll touch on probably a couple of those other ones later on, but a main standout one that you look back and think, boy, I'm proud of that if.
[00:04:48] Graham Jones: You want me to be quick. Mark Winning league one with Swansea Survival Sunday over Wingan second season was just. Can't tell you the relief winning the FAA cup were winging 72 points with Everton first season and then playing in Europe the following year.
Bronze medal in a World Cup.
[00:05:19] Marc Millar: You've been blessed, haven't you? You've been blessed and very fortunate.
[00:05:22] Graham Jones: I have and I silver medal on the Euro.
[00:05:24] Marc Millar: So look, I'm a big believer, Graeme, that you work hard for what you deserve and hopefully most people get that as they go through their career. But our paths crossed at St. Johnston for a brief period, but again, just briefly, maybe for our listeners that don't know Graham Jones the player. What type of player was Graham Jones?
[00:05:44] Graham Jones: Probably three, three, three phases in that mark. I think the early, the early days I was a 6 foot, 6 foot thin, tricky winger and I definitely became more robust playing non league football. And then I put two stone on weights working with Jamie Lawrence in a gym in Doncaster, which changed my career. I became a Robust, tough, strong centre forward who could run.
I had a really, really good spell, I'd probably say from the age of 24 to 29 was my peak.
And then I became a centre forward that was like Dusty Ben who didn't move very much and was just a target man. They were the three phases really, but at least I kept reinventing myself.
[00:06:38] Marc Millar: But a score of goals. I would have quite liked to see you as a tricky winger, if I'm being honest. That would have been. That would have been nice. And I'm always interested Graham and former players how the thought process is to get into coaching.
Was there a specific moment for you? Was there a light bulb moment? Was there something that just triggered and you thought, this is for me. I can do this. But instead of waiting to the end of your career or when injuries really took their toll, was there a period where that you can remember that thought, I'm going to get into this. This is for me.
[00:07:07] Graham Jones: I got released by mill wall at 18 and I wanted to go to America as a coach. So I sat me prelim the FA prelim license with actually.
I was actually employed by Newcastle United Football in the community at the time just because I wanted me licensed and I was the only one out of the group that passed it. So obviously I took a bit of confidence from that.
When I signed Pro Mark at 23, I decided I was never coming out the game again and I wanted to be a coach when I finished.
So I qualified as a teacher.
I went back to uni, to Sheffield Uni. I did a certificate in education post 16.
Again just to understand that learning process.
I did my A license by the time I was 29 I was complete.
So I felt like I'd. I'd set myself up for a coaching or a teaching career because you can't guarantee you're going to be a coach by the time I finished playing. So I was already prepared to go.
[00:08:12] Marc Millar: Into it fully qualified. Is that correct? At 29?
[00:08:15] Graham Jones: Yeah. At that time, yeah.
[00:08:17] Marc Millar: Very impressive. And like I mentioned or intimated earlier, it's too many players just leave it till too late and try and cram it in when they thought, well what the hell am I going to do when I finish? So yeah, very commendable keeping on that coaching side. I mean it's well known of the relationship with Roberto Martinez throughout your coaching career. But where did this begin and was there a coaching element to that immediately that you both kind of just triggered and just related to each other, I would imagine from your wiggin days.
[00:08:47] Graham Jones: Yeah. Well, I just Remember pre season 96, we've been on a run and John Dean said, pick a partner, stretch your calves off. Me and Rob picked each other and just on a moral level, Mark, we just got on immediately from that point.
Connected on the pitch because he was your midfielder, what a forward pass. I was the striker that would make forward runs.
He was a huge player in me getting 33 goals and 15 the following season.
And after two years I think I'd signed a new deal and I bought a house in the northeast in Scotch Corner so my wife could be near my mother in law because it's 20 months between me lads and I thought, well, she could be taken care of up there and I'll just concentrate on my football. But the travelling was killing me.
So Roberto said, why don't you stay with me twice a week and we'd go out for something to eat and we'd just talk football and realise what an outstanding education he had at Real Zaragoza, realise how much we connected both professionally and personally. And that's where it was set.
[00:10:01] Marc Millar: Constant analysis, constant chat about football.
And you may have soaked up a lot from each other in different experiences, but could you kind of tell that age or that era, Graeme, that he was destined to be a decent coach at a good level or destined to be a coach at a good level?
[00:10:19] Graham Jones: Rob's style of management is different than anything I've seen.
So I never really went immediately at that time as a player. He's going to be a manager.
He's talical brained.
23, 24, 25, 26 was just incredible. I learned more from Roberto than I learned from some of my managers.
His view on the game was just completely different anybody else I'd ever come across.
So I knew there was somebody special.
But he was a qualified physiotherapist at the time. He'd qualified while he was playing for Zaragoza.
So maybe he didn't know what route he was going to go down.
His dad had been a manager, so obviously his upbringing you're probably influenced by that gives you a great insight into what it takes.
But I knew, I mean, I'm talking about as a friend, as a football guy, I knew I was involved with a special person.
[00:11:22] Marc Millar: I was just about to say on a personal connection, it just really worked. It took off. Yeah, I mean I'm equally as interested. So Graham Jones moves into. Into coaching.
How was Graham Jones the coach early on? Likes of Swansea and Wigan, likes of your style, your demands. The character of Graham Jones that brought to both Those clubs in your early phase?
[00:11:43] Graham Jones: Well, I was the character because I was sort of dressed in Mount Mark.
Like I said, I got, at the beginning of my career, I got taught. If you never go away from being honest, you'll never go far wrong. That was one thing. The other thing was if you're going to be successful at something grim, you must commit to it. So I moved to Swansea, I moved my family to Swansea. But I was very abrasive at that time, very aggressive, wanted things done in a certain way. Roberto let me get on with that side. He concentrated on the tactics on the training ground. I would be obsessed with touches of the ball. Try and try and get a thousand touches per session per player, invent passing drills that represented our phases of play, our patterns of play, our attacking patterns.
And that was my role set players.
So that's skimming it really, and what it was.
But that's, that's how that early method of work was formulated.
[00:12:49] Marc Millar: And is it safe to say that those early stages, technically, that was more where you were involved on a daily basis, on a match day basis, and Roberto was more tactically and over a period of time, you've probably learned more from each other and taken more on board?
[00:13:04] Graham Jones: Yeah, I mean, that was.
That was a constant for 12 years. Obviously, the more experience I got, the more I'd offer my opinion. Technically, the last four years, technically, has been where it's been my biggest area, both as a manager and assistant. I needed that, I needed that experience. So the 12 years I spent with Rob, that's how we divided our week up, our roles up, and obviously it was hugely successful.
[00:13:36] Marc Millar: Compliments each other. Well, obviously I could tell that over that period of time. But again, just going back to that phase, Graham, I mean, what did you feel internally, your biggest challenges, developing as a coach?
[00:13:48] Graham Jones: Biggest challenges were, I can remember, Mark, we went in in February at Swansea and Rob said to me, bonner, because I get called Bonner, by the way, off everybody, Bonner.
Let's try not to repeat an exercise in the next 12 weeks, never mind the session.
And that ended up being our benchmark for the next 12 years. We found it so difficult to repeat sessions because we didn't feel we're stimulating players, we didn't feel like we're stimulating ourselves.
So being creative was.
It was brilliant when I look back, because now we have problems. It's so easy for me to be creative, creative and design a session that I need to affect an individual or a unit or a team.
But that was all born in that early period I was obsessed with the technical aspect, passengers, patterns of player.
I definitely think I in our method brought the physicality and intensity through the technical aspect where it was separate at that time in the game I hadn't really being discovered.
So yeah, that was, that was probably my area.
[00:14:58] Marc Millar: I think me thinking back now that you've explained a few of those, those kind of drills and expectations, then there's a lot what was going on at Swansea back then that a lot of clubs are trying to replicate now in the Premier League. The closing down, the high press, the keeping possession, the passing, the touches, you know, moving the ball around quickly. One touch, two touch. If I remember correctly, it's a lot of what Swansea were doing back then anyway.
[00:15:19] Graham Jones: Well, this is 2006. We're playing out from the back with Doris Devries and our target was to win game as number one. But to try and get a thousand passes in a game, that's what we prided ourselves on. If we had to describe minding, Rob's method of work would be technical and technical, they were an absolute priority and we were.
Wenger was doing it at Arsenal, but outside of Wenger there was nobody else doing it, certainly not in League one.
[00:15:49] Marc Millar: And the players responded to that in abundance at Swansea, didn't they? Because obviously then it continued with the next couple of managers and Swansea reached heights that probably never, never been for decades anyway. Back in the 80s when they were in the old first division, it set.
[00:16:01] Graham Jones: Them up, Mark, that pattern set them up, that style of play. Only when they veered away from it to survive did they become weaker.
[00:16:10] Marc Millar: Yeah, that's the difficulty, is it? Once you maybe start falling down the league is do you give up your morals and what you like to play in? Philosophy, Graham. Different pressures at Swansea and Wigan. Although winning an FA cup for a club such as Wigan is just absolutely phenomenal. I mean, obviously that squad and the management will be remembered for years to come.
But moving on to Everton, a complete and utterly different set of expectations, both internally from yourselves as well as externally. I mean, how was that coping with that on a daily basis?
[00:16:41] Graham Jones: Well, internally, Marg, it never changed for me and Rob because we always had, we always were doing 12 hour days.
We lived for the year. This is a big thing for anybody listening. I accepted football in my life from Swansea.
So I'd go to bed, I'd go to sleep thinking about sessions, thinking about games.
It's a big thing. That's probably the biggest tip I can give anybody. Don't try and do it part time. So don't try and go, well, I've left work, now I can go home and now I can be a father or be a husband or whatever and go out or. It was our whole life, it dominated our whole life.
But when we got Evan, I felt it ramp up.
Silly things like Phil Jagiel would text and he would have C O Y B on the bottom of. Come on you blues. You realize the magnitude of the club you were working for. You realized the responsibility you had in your own particular role and you better live for this football club. Luckily we'd already committed, so we'd already committed to the game but I definitely felt that, I definitely felt that getting ramped up, but we were ready for it.
[00:17:57] Marc Millar: Did you put more internally to yourself? Did you put more expectations on yourself? Did you feel more pressure? Maybe not the expectations, sorry, but did you feel, did you put more pressure on yourself because just a willingness that you wanted to take this club to that step further where maybe it hadn't been done for such a long time?
[00:18:12] Graham Jones: No, because we always had good standards. Definitely didn't always put myself under pressure. Still do now.
But I can remember Roberto used to name the team in the home team dressing room and there was these three benches around you and there was some, you know, we had some massive players in that room and I would have to do a presentation on the set players against other set players and I remember being really nervous early on, probably the first time I felt like that. But in that room was Jagielka Baynes, Lukaku Barkley, Stone, Coleman Delafield, Morales, Barry McCarthy, Disstan Howard, Leon Osmond, you know, some huge, huge characters at that football club and you better knew your stuff because if you didn't I'd let you know. So it was, it was, it was for us personally it was the right challenge at the right time and we're ready for it.
[00:19:16] Marc Millar: And I think as you mentioned there, I mean self belief is big for you, I understand that and I think as your CV grows, hopefully that just gives you more, not arrogance but more confidence and self belief in yourself. Is that test at Everton, you alluded to just being nervous there maybe before the odd talk. Did that maybe transpire to maybe the first couple of sessions or so or taken sessions?
[00:19:36] Graham Jones: No, I was more comfortable on the genopic, it was just, remember the first two or three meetings and then once I got past that I was absolutely fine.
Yeah, it was. When I look back, I mean I haven't spoke about them or I've never thought about it since you just.
I think the tougher the environment sometimes the easier the next becomes.
So I just embraced it and I was ready for it.
[00:20:01] Marc Millar: There's no way. Hopefully it didn't come across the arbitrary at all Graham. But I just.
I'm always keen to understand how a coach gets his point across to some players. Maybe not on a training pitch, maybe an interchange room or maybe one to one when we're both probably at the same level. We never played at their level. Definitely not.
Does that where some of the nervousness comes from then? Maybe all those early chats or early team talks at Everton? Some of these players have played at the highest level.
[00:20:31] Graham Jones: I wasn't first by that because I knew.
I knew our method of work was strong enough.
I believed in what I could bring to the party.
I didn't care about levels. I'd been a professional footballer. I'd already worked in the Premier League for four years at that point.
So I'm only talking more. I'm really skimming. Three years, probably three meetings are that I was a bit wound up for us before I went in. Outside of that never bothered me at all.
But I'll be lying if I told you I took everything in me stride and.
[00:21:04] Marc Millar: And you mentioned the technical side of things earlier a couple of times. Is that just ever evolving constant that it just. It has to keep. You have to keep learning. You have to keep looking for that maybe 1% or you have to keep looking for that little gain here and there.
[00:21:18] Graham Jones: It changes every week and if you don't look for it, somebody else will. So that defines your hunger.
I can think of huge tactical changes in the game. At the end of last season we got a bad defeat at Brighton and if I hadn't looked back at that game in detail we would have never benefited from the information I found for the next nine games going forward.
So this. I'll go back to what I said to you Mark. You have to live for the game. That has to be number one.
And if you do, you'll.
If you commit to it, you'll be.
[00:21:52] Marc Millar: Successful, hopefully get your rewards. And look, there is a lot of analyzing there or ongoing development as well. But I probably have an idea of your answer. But are we too reliant on analytical data at times from every decision a player makes, be it passes, crosses, possessions, maybe percentage of passes, goals that scored in connection with chances. Is there too much data Graham at times?
[00:22:19] Graham Jones: No, because it's. You have to move with the times Mark. I think that.
I think the first thing I look at is I want my own subjective opinion so I've got a starting place and then I would support that with analytical data.
I think that's probably an example of the change that's happened where you would just rely on your subjective opinion. You want it?
I don't need it supported. But I think that if you can get it supported by data, that's not a bad thing.
[00:22:52] Marc Millar: Do you think the players respond to that as well? Do you think they accept it? Or is it just a new kind of era where players are expecting and realize that that data is coming for them and it can highlight positives as well as the weaknesses?
[00:23:04] Graham Jones: Yeah, well, I think you always have to be careful how you use data because it can have a negative effect as much as a positive one. But you know, that's their era. They're used to analytical data. That's their culture, that's what they've been brought up in.
So there's an element you have to affect them on that level.
[00:23:27] Marc Millar: Again, very interesting. Moving on. Belgium fascinates me, Graham, and hopefully you may touch on it, but possibly working at as a benefit with Morales and Lukaku at Everton before going on to Belgium. But I mean the quality at Belgium was quite staggering over that period. Hazard, Lukaku, Co. De Bruyne, Courtois. I mean, does it make it more difficult to coach these players or does it make it easier to coach going into that environment with some global stars and some of the best position. Some of the best players. Sorry, in their positions in the world.
[00:23:57] Graham Jones: I think Mark, regardless, Roberto got appointed. We left Everton two months. Roberto got appointed early August. I got appointed late August.
I basically came over for one day or two days and then we were taking the training session and our preparation was Spain at home on a Thursday. So we met up Sunday night, Spain at home with the European champions on a Thursday in a friendly at the King Board 1 in Brussels.
And then Monday night of the following week we're playing Cyprus away in a World cup qualifier. I didn't have any time to think. You just had to get organized and get prepared and it was probably a good thing.
So the Everton experience, remember we've got record points, all of 72 points, 11 in our last seat. We'd play the European second season.
In our last season we had got to both domestic semifinals, finished 11th in the table. We were as much as you can be ready for this experience as we could be. So again it was another moment like at Everton, like at Wigan. It was like, come on, bring it on.
[00:25:12] Marc Millar: A challenge to be accepted and to be enjoyed more than anything else. I'm sure some people are interested, but as a coach, how do you start or how do you go about trying to improve those types of players? And I think the challenge is also that you only have them for short periods of time trying to improve them, improve or add to their game.
Is it more a tactical side or slight technical side?
[00:25:36] Graham Jones: No, I think it's more tactical. When I look back, what happened in that camp was they've been beaten by Wales in the European Championships in France.
That was their last game. So the next game, Spain, we went with the same ship to make that familiar for.
Because they've been used to playing that system.
Against Spain, we got dominated in the Spain game and we decided between the Spain game to the Cyprus game three days that we're going to change the shape and play three, four, three with two number tens.
Kevin was going to be one, number ten and Edin was going to be the other. Treat them the same, two big stars. One's a Dutch speaker, one's a French speaker.
We felt like the shape was the correct shape for the players we had.
We had two days to prepare the team with a completely different shape and it's still the shape six years on that Roberto uses today.
We won three nil that night. I think we missed a late penalty to make it four and it just fell into place more or less immediately.
So I think we definitely improved the group. Tabitha. We definitely picked a system, looking back, that suited the players and the proof being in the pudding, because I think still classed as the number one team in the world now.
[00:27:09] Marc Millar: No, I think you're correct. And it's just. It's a generation that probably 20, 22 can't come quick enough as far as the World Cup's concerned. Maybe puts added pressure on them, but what an opportunity for that group of players.
So, yeah, very special.
You talk about what you delivered. What did you learn from it, Graham? From the likes of coaching those players, spending time with those players. Obviously Terry Henry was involved. What did you learn? What did you get out of it?
[00:27:34] Graham Jones: What elite looked like.
There was elite everywhere, but it was elite. With respect, I learned that there was great empathy between the group. Everybody talks about the top players that we had and there were, but there was. They'd come through the age groups together. There was enormous respect and unity with that group, which made it easier. It did make it easier. I think we were the right management team at the right time.
I learned how to handle big players.
I could tell You.
I could tell you lots of stories, which I can't.
[00:28:14] Marc Millar: I'm sure you can. That's probably for another podcast.
[00:28:16] Graham Jones: Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
And if you didn't know your stuff and you weren't ahead of the game, they'd absolutely melt you.
But I learned a lot, especially dealing with big players, big personalities, big egos. I have to say that you had to be very empathetic as a coach.
Very empathetic, very aware of the sessions you are putting on.
You had to be. Be quite visual in terms of looking ahead to your session and smelling any issues that you might have.
So the preparation just for training went to a whole new level. Took you to that.
But like, it's only now reflecting on it. It's just tools I've got in my bag now. I never.
I never analyzed at that time, was just about making it work. I think about the different characters again, I can't, you know, I can't go into detail with names, but one particular character tested me for two years, and I mean tested me. And I eventually won him over at half time in a third and fourth place playoff game against England.
And I would. I left. I left me job 36 hours later.
But I got his respect and learned how to manage him and what it took to manage him.
So I was all in. I was all in from minute one till the minute I left. No question about. I knew during the World Cup I was going to leave, but I was all in.
But then them players to take you to a level that you have to think outside the box, you have to cover everything.
So what they did was. I'm grateful for them because they improved me.
[00:30:09] Marc Millar: Look, I think everything we do is always a challenge or to be challenged. Just takes you on to a whole new level. It's interesting.
[00:30:14] Graham Jones: Nobody tells you that. So nobody tells you you have to suffer. Nobody tells you that you have to have difficult moments. Nobody tells you as a kid growing up fundamentally actually have to fail before you succeed.
We're all frightened of it. And it's how you assess it and reflect on that and what you do going forward, which actually makes. It makes that period a success or a failure.
[00:30:38] Marc Millar: Yeah, I think that. I think just thinking that reverts back to how we chatted just before we started to record. But failure is not a good thing. But I think if you embrace it and use it as a positive, as we were talking about earlier, it's fundamental that there's always going to be failure in football. Not everybody can win. There's always going to be failure in life. There's always going to be challenges in life. There's always going to be disappointments. But it's one of those ones where you just hope that you embrace it and you learn from it and go forward.
But it sounds as if that could have been a challenging time. But you're honest enough to know that you learned from them as well.
You talked about something easy to coach in one sense was that more just on a personal. The one to one levels and just engaging with them, the communication. It was easier to be be work with this group of players if you.
[00:31:23] Graham Jones: Talk about tactical information.
So just give you a quick example. We changed shape from beating Japan in the last 16 of the world cup with the last kick of the game after being 20 down 132 to completely change in shape for the Brazil quarterfinal.
And the tactical information that that level of elite player is able to to take on board quickly is staggering. It's probably what separates them from your average player.
So they've got the technical ability, they've got the physical capability, they've obviously got the mentality to play at that level. But have they got the technical intelligence to.
To carry out what you're asking them to do?
That's when I realize what an league player looked like with was it was a day's preparation actually to execute that game plan. How we did was testament to the manager, the management testament of the player's ability to take that information on board.
[00:32:26] Marc Millar: Comes back to a lot of trust. Isn't it a change such as that the players having a trust in the management.
[00:32:29] Graham Jones: Yeah.
[00:32:30] Marc Millar: But it also sounds as if were you able to enjoy it working with elite?
[00:32:33] Graham Jones: Yeah, I loved it was.
It was a privilege. I'm proud to say that I was assistant manager, first assistant coach for Belgium for two years. I'm an Englishman who worked on the continent. I lived on the continent which we don't do us English, we don't move.
It definitely improved me and definitely helped me understand what big players and league players look like.
[00:33:07] Marc Millar: It's life changing experiences and skills in different countries in different situations most certainly. How did it feel Graham coming up against England in the group stages and then. And I know people say there's not a lot to play for, maybe a bit of pride but coming third in the World cup as an Englishman standing on the touchline. How did that feel? National anthem going crowd there because I.
[00:33:28] Graham Jones: Know Gareth, me and Gareth did were pro licensed together.
Terrible.
The group game I look forward to because once we'd both qualified. So when in that game, as it was a dead rubber. Whoever won had the most difficult route in the World Cup. So I think there's only Adnan Janazai who scored the goal, didn't know what route, but obviously you promoted the win for the previous six weeks in the build up the camp, you can't come away and say, well, actually it might be better going down a different route. So we. That was difficult, that game.
The third and fourth place playoff mark was. It wasn't a dead rubber to me. I don't think I've took a game as serious in my life.
Wanted a medal, so I got a bronze medal for Belgium.
The England boys, who I love got nothing.
And it was as big as that for me.
You know, I think since 66, I'm probably the only Englishman who's got any kind of medal from a World Cup. And I wanted it badly. I wanted badly enough to have a bit of a row, one or two at half time and you look back, you affect people on an emotional, human level. You contribute, you help contribute, you get to achieve that. So was there was definitely no friends in that game. We wanted to win.
[00:34:50] Marc Millar: I think a couple of times. We've got close to the old school mentality, but I think that's what we play for every single game. Doesn't matter who you play against, whether it was someone in your family or not. It's just that's having that winning mentality. It kind of breeds that kind of ongoing mentality. Sticking with international football, Graeme, just obviously you were then brought into the Euro coaching setup for the recent championship.
How did that come about? You touched on that you'd done your coaching badges with Garth Southgate. But exactly how did it come around? What did you add to the group and what was your brief?
[00:35:22] Graham Jones: So I got a phone call in May. Alan Russell had left his post.
Gareth said to me and you. Me and Gareth are always sort of paths have always crossed, like the England, Belgium thing.
Gareth says, I want you to come in, make the actual title was second assistant first team coach Steve Ovens, the assistant manager.
I want you to look after set place four, which I've never done before in my career. The only job I hadn't done.
And can you do it? I just booked a 17 day family holiday to Portugal. I had a villa, hadn't been away the previous year from COVID Your wife.
[00:36:03] Marc Millar: Would have been delighted.
[00:36:04] Graham Jones: Delighted. But she is.
She's an incredible woman, Debbie. She knows how much the game means to me.
And within 24 hours I told Gareth I was I was coming went in, I think had definitely it helped me working with Belgium.
So we went to Rockcliffe for 10 days. So Middlesbrough's training ground again. You go back to these Everton meetings. I remember standing in a room because Man United had played Europa League final and Chelsea and Man City had played Champions League final. Them boys came into the cam lad. So we had to take a bigger squad because we had two friendlies and they joined us later.
And I remember taking a meeting on set. Players 4 at Rockliffe before we played played Romania on the Sunday. Romania, Austria.
And it was the best 31 players in England were sitting in the room.
And again, you better know your stuff. And again, work detail putting in the time helps you when you, when you, when you're taking their meetings. So that was the start of it. We had one day off and the whole camp. I was with England 45 days the whole of my summer.
And we met at St. George's Park.
I think I was privileged enough to be part of the game plan meetings. So me, Gareth, Steve Martin, Margeson, Chris Powell, Ian Mitchell, we reviewed our games, which I would watch back again in detail and review the opponent and talk about how we're going to win the game. Tactically, Steve Holland was immense with his training program.
Gareth as a manager is exceptional. He's empathy with players is as good as anywhere I've ever seen.
And I was just privileged to be part of that setup. And I think I worked.
You know, if you've ever done it, if you've ever done a tournament, you work long, long hours and worked hard.
Huge rewards in terms of, in terms of Mark, I don't know the word, but being happy with you a lot in terms of.
[00:38:38] Marc Millar: Taking a lot of fulfillment at that stage in your career. Just with your country, with how it, how it developed. Yeah, the win and run, it kind of gathered pace. So the country just went ballistic. Quarterfinal, semi, final.
[00:38:50] Graham Jones: You're not really aware of the dynamics outside, but I felt like I contributed a lot.
But it was for my own country this time. And I stood and sang the national anthem and also I ticked the box of doing the Euro. So I've done a World cup and done a Euro. So it was so many things encapsulated and I loved every minute, apart from the penalty shootout where we were undefeated in the nine games I was there.
And I had two weeks off immediately. Steve Bruce gave me two weeks off holiday and I couldn't get the game out my system. I just kept rerunning and rerunning small details that were on your mind that you. That could have won us the European championships.
[00:39:40] Marc Millar: But that's where the passion and the commitment comes from, isn't it? Because I'm sure you were the same when I played the certain games. Midweek games are worse than others that you couldn't get to sleep. The game would just run and run through your mind and notice respect. That's at our level. So you can imagine a Euro final, but it would just encompass it.
[00:39:56] Graham Jones: But what happens, Mark, at club level? You're in Monday morning, you're speaking about. You're speaking about it Sunday. You're watching the game.
That tournament finished the next day. You disperse.
So I never spoke together for three or four weeks after it.
I wanted to leave him alone. I wanted to leave Steve alone. Because you've got to respect their private space.
And I was left with these thoughts and frustrations. And it's almost. It's two weeks.
[00:40:23] Marc Millar: Does that come on Every togetherness, atmosphere. Everything's building as you get closer. But it's almost like you maybe need a debrief. You need a bit of time together or just a phase going back to.
[00:40:34] Graham Jones: You want to know on your own for a while. You want to know why and what happened. You've got your own opinion. But obviously these are elite people. You want to know theirs as well. But so that I've not experienced before. Because when I left the previous tour woke up. It was euphoria because we'd ended up getting a bronze medal.
But I look better than now. With immense satisfaction.
Silver medal in the Euros. Undefeated tournament.
[00:40:57] Marc Millar: Silver and the Euros, Bronze and World Cup.
[00:40:59] Graham Jones: Yeah. But one to go, Mark.
[00:41:01] Marc Millar: Yeah. Don't know where that complete the set. Nah. Phenomenal experience.
Is there something in the last. The two jobs then? Belgium and England. Is that the challenge International football, Graham, from you as a coaching perspective. You want to be hands on. You want to be involved that you only see players every so often for limited periods. Is that what kind of ensured. I know you. You're with Steve Bruce at the time. But is that what ensured you? Club managements for you, club coaches for you.
[00:41:28] Graham Jones: Yeah. I was always coming back to Newcastle, Mark. And I made that clear to everybody in England. Set up. I think a lot of people that would have been happy for me to stay.
Newcastle is my love. It's. It's like it's completely different. Anything I've ever been motivated for my life.
[00:41:43] Marc Millar: But it's your club.
[00:41:44] Graham Jones: It's. It's. I mean I. Mark, I can't begin to tell you. I Came here with my dad, 4 year old, had season tickets.
1978, 1979, 1980, season ticket again. 83, 84, 85, 86.
You know, my dad spent.
My dad spent 65 years at this club.
My dad was part of the rebel supporters club because they didn't like the owners. In 1960s, my week was determined by how Newcastle United fared, whether the one lost the drone.
It was. I could just. It just. I cannot begin to tell you what it was like. So I was in dreamland when I signed here and I saw. I'm 51 now, so consider myself young to an extent as never ever, never leaving Newcastle United, that's for sure. And then obviously you don't know what's around the corner. There's a takeover and new management. And again, going back to that, I was totally committed to it.
I think again, delight and privilege where I am today.
I think whenever my time at Newcastle is over, I'd love to get back in international football. That would be something at that stage. But I'm too young for that at this minute.
[00:43:07] Marc Millar: No, I can understand that we probably jumped ahead just with both of the international sides of things.
But I know, Graeme, that through those 10, 11 years, through the Belgian time, there was numerous attempts and there's numerous conversations or approaches to be manager.
Why had you never taken it? And then why all of a sudden feel or decide that you would give it a go?
What was the change or what was the dynamics or what was the thought process that.
[00:43:38] Graham Jones: Two things more. I always wanted to be a manager.
I'd seen Roberto's life turn incredibly intense.
So he'd become famous and I had two young sons at that time when I got offered these jobs, didn't want my job to have an impact on their lives. And I thought, I'm in a. I'm in a winning relationship with Rob, so I'll do. I'll do it when my lads have grown up. So I left Roberta in 2018 for that reason, because I wanted to be a manager. I was 48 at the time.
So that was three years ago. And now three and a half years ago now. My boys were 22 and 19.
Sorry, 22 and 20.
At that point they were old enough to realize that whatever I did was going to have no impact on.
On their lives. I think when you're young and pretentious, it can have an impact.
That's why I turned it down.
I was also committed the relationship I had with Revolution Roberto, they were the two. Two reasons and I would do it I would do it at the end when the lads were up.
So me and Rob were absolutely fine. But I left Rob for that reason because I wanted to be a manager. I got offered a new two year contract to stay with Belgium and I turned it down because I had my own ambitions.
[00:45:01] Marc Millar: I'm a big believer, Graham, that even in life you better go and try something and fail than always maybe in a decade later to think what ifs or I could have or I should have. I couldn't. I'm a huge believer now. Yeah, so what I'm. Keenan was there areas, although you kind of spent so much time. The closeness with Roberto as well and understood how he went about things as a manager. Was there things that you. You didn't expect or you found challenging during your spell as a manager?
[00:45:27] Graham Jones: Absolutely. You haven't got a clue.
[00:45:29] Marc Millar: No, that's why I'm asking you.
[00:45:30] Graham Jones: No, I don't mean you, Martin. Anybody hasn't got a clue what it's like to be a manager. Tell you being one. So I was a hands on assistant. Roberto will tell you that.
I went with Darren. I could have. There was a couple of jobs I could have took that year, Osterson being one in Sweden that summer, one in the UK and I decided to go as assistant with Darren Moore who's a lifelong friend. I love Darren. Well, I love Roberto.
[00:45:57] Marc Millar: This is at West Brom.
[00:45:58] Graham Jones: Yeah.
And long story short, I'd agreed to take the Luton job in the January but I wasn't prepared to leave Darren because again start summer you don't want to let your maid down. Anyway, they sacked us in March so I became manager and the following May I thought I was ready for the.
The job as being managed.
I got. Nothing prepares you for that.
I think.
[00:46:30] Marc Millar: Just the sheer workload, Graham or the intensity or just the pressures, financials, everything.
[00:46:35] Graham Jones: Responsibility and workload.
So again I repeat myself more. I was a hands on assistant but to make every decision in a football club as everything does fill the back of the manager and I was a manager, I wasn't a head coach.
I underestimated.
I underestimated that kind of level, what it was going to take.
[00:47:04] Marc Millar: And the championship was very unforgiving.
[00:47:06] Graham Jones: Well for me, a newly promoted League one team and the championship is now the biggest step up. It's the old what it used to be from the championship, the Premier League where they would get relegated. So it was tough. The first six months was really, really tough. Me wife lost her mother so I was. She wasn't living with me from December And January while she cared for her mum. So I was on my own doing this job.
Probably the biggest achievement I've had in football was surviving that. We had eight defeats in a draw, I think, over December and January.
And I dug in more. I dug in like never before because that's how I am. I wasn't going to be beaten. We turned that. We turned them running. Results round.
My last six games for Luton before the pandemic came was three wins, two draws and a defeat and three clean sheets.
So I wasn't a manager on a losing run.
I was a manager that had turned a losing run around and was shown real signs of real recovery. Pandemic came. Club decided to make a change.
I had to swallow that for financial reasons.
And then Nathan's came in. He's done absolutely brilliant. But I definitely think the. And Nathan will be the first one to admit it, that the.
The board had turned round at that point. It was on its way.
[00:48:27] Marc Millar: What did you learn about yourself, Graham?
[00:48:30] Graham Jones: Because I learned that. I learned that I can take myself to the brink if I needed to. I learned that I can dig deep. I learned I'll never give in, never. Because that tests you. I learned that I can cope with any situation because I was getting. I'm walking off the pitch at Luke now. I'm getting booed off supporters and media coming for you. And I learned that I can work under pressure, I can think under pressure.
I learned that.
That in real pressure moments, it's about thinking as well as fighting.
I. I can't begin to tell you the amount of things I learned about myself and in that period.
[00:49:16] Marc Millar: And I was taking a positive from even the most difficult situations.
[00:49:20] Graham Jones: Yeah.
I don't live life stupidly on a positive more. I think I'm always being realistic, positively realistic. I was manager two weeks short of a year.
I learned more in that period than I Learned the previous 12 years, 13 years. Whatever it was, it was fast track.
It was.
It was exhilarating. It was difficult. I'd come to terms with it. Definitely come to terms in the last two or three months.
An experience I wouldn't swap for the world.
[00:49:54] Marc Millar: One of your biggest challenges.
One of your biggest challenges.
[00:49:58] Graham Jones: The biggest.
No question, the biggest. Because we have the smallest budget in the league, we're newly promoted. You're trying to convince players mentally that they're good enough to play at the level and compete with these players.
Luton Town's a big, big football club. Luton Town get 11,000 people in every week. Kenilworth Road. If they had a 25,000 stadium capacity, they'd get 25,000.
And it was a lot of responsibility on my shoulders. Again, one I wanted, one I needed at that time, but one that I found very, very tough.
And at the end it made me.
[00:50:34] Marc Millar: It's incessant, Graham. It's just incessant. This might be slightly unfair. I mean, we're getting towards the end, but this might be slightly unfair and not necessarily directing it yourself, but there's some people better suited to coaching than management.
[00:50:48] Graham Jones: Yes, definitely. I think if I'm looking back at my time now, more I left it too late.
So I did it for all the right reasons. I think you have to allow it in your life earlier. So again, that would be something that I would give any young aspiring manager.
It's a real.
It's a real impingement on your private life, being a manager.
Think the earlier you do it, the better.
It's the truth. But then I was probably the most. One of the most experienced assistant managers on the circuit.
And in the end, there's always an adaptation period to any job and I had adapted and I had turned it around. So to answer your question, yes, some people are.
I still feel like I could do it, I could do it. That doesn't mean say I want to do it, but I think having the ability to do both is key.
[00:51:51] Marc Millar: And it sounds as if out with the football, people probably just think it's an easier transition, but it seems as if there's a hell of a gap between a coaching role and a management role. And again, probably depending on what club you go into.
[00:52:03] Graham Jones: Yeah, I mean, obviously, yeah, your opportunities.
I picked a difficult challenge. You know, if you go to established championship club at that time, who've got a big budget, it would certainly make life easier for you.
But that's. That's the one I took. You learn from both, don't you? Learn from all situations. I couldn't have learned any more than what I did at Luton. And I'll go back to Saintly. I'm grateful for it. But the jump from not even coaching. I was assistant manager involved in everything to manager was a huge step.
[00:52:34] Marc Millar: I think hopefully it makes you stronger and more resilient. A few questions to finish with Greg. I mean, has the game changed for the better from a coaching perspective? I'm thinking maybe more along the lines of player protection, slightly limited contact.
Does that make coaching easier? But has coaching benefited from how the game's developed and changed from those early Swansea days to.
[00:52:57] Graham Jones: Yeah, I mean, you have to. You have to look in more detail now. I mean we. Again, me and Rob, pride of myself on the detail. We would look into things. But if I talk about us in build up opposition and build up transitions for those transitions for the opposition, set players for set plays against the detail in that game. Preparation, planning. Every week is exceptions large.
It's fast.
It wasn't the same.
It wasn't the same 15 years ago.
It really wasn't. I can remember Roberto and the championship season starting to watch the opposition for the first time now. You watch your opposition three or four times a week before you play them. You know everything about them if you're going to do your job properly.
So is it for the better? I think it's.
I can't really. I can't really measure that more. But I'd say that it's definitely pushed us harder.
The demands are more because of it.
[00:54:00] Marc Millar: And across that same period of time, what's frustrated you about football or is there any frustrations that have grown in football or developed in football?
Just across that. We're talking nearly from a coaching perspective, It's. You're over 15 years now.
[00:54:13] Graham Jones: Yeah.
Probably the contact aspect of the game. I don't mean some things. The tackle from behind, for example, when I played was a. I was a center forwarder. Used to just get smashed in the first minute. That was a center half's remake. But I think the contact has got a bit too much. I think it's a contact sport and there's a fine line. There's a happy medium that I think we've gone past.
That would be the first thing, probably the biggest thing that springs to mind.
[00:54:43] Marc Millar: And fundamentals for you as a coach, what is the fundamentals A player has to have to be able to. For you to work with also improve them. What do they have to have? What's key for them? If they come into training on a daily basis or a weekly basis, what do they have to show you?
[00:54:58] Graham Jones: Well, I'd love to say to you now they've got real physicality and technically they can use both feet. And technically they're really, really bright. Mentally they're really strong. But you don't get that. You get mixtures.
So I'll accept a player for whatever he is because I think that's your job is to try and fit their strengths in a team. That's how you make a team. But what I won't accept is poor standards. So I know when somebody's committed and I know when somebody's working hard and I know when somebody's engaged mentally is a big thing for me. I look at the psychological aspect more than probably any area anymore because I know if you don't control that brain, you don't fit that brain. You won't control the mental side, the technical side, you won't control the technical side or the physical side.
But I like good standards. The boys here know that you have to come to the.
You have to come to work every day. They were good standards.
[00:55:57] Marc Millar: Are you big? This is just thinking again what you said there. Are you big on training match in a game?
Because I'm trying to think again just as you're talking there.
I'm sure you did as well played with numerous people who are poor trainers.
[00:56:09] Graham Jones: Yeah.
[00:56:09] Marc Millar: But boy could they turn it on on a match day. Is that accepted now or is that.
[00:56:12] Graham Jones: Is that it's getting less and less small because the.
[00:56:15] Marc Millar: The intensity as well.
[00:56:17] Graham Jones: Just like big spaces, you. You play on a big spare, you trainings become a lot more scientific. Players want small spaces because they want to feel short. When you do feel short because it's in small spaces. But it's getting the balance right between that and big areas you've got to run on. You've seen how Premier League players cover the ground now and there's a huge area in terms of preparation.
[00:56:38] Marc Millar: Is there any skills and attributes? This is last. Couple of questions that you can't coach.
What can you not give a player? What does a player have to have that you can't give them?
[00:56:47] Graham Jones: That.
[00:56:47] Marc Millar: That they've got to. They've got to produce or they've got to show an abundance.
[00:56:51] Graham Jones: Natural talent.
You can get a manufactured player who can give you a certain level. But I think when I look back at mine and Rob's time and right the way through so I can go from Andy Robinson and Lee Trundle and Ferry Boda and I think the Charles and Zogby and Hugo Rodolega. I can think of Romelu Lukaku, I can think of Ross Barker, of John Stones, Gerard de Lafayo, then all the Belgium boys, Hazard De Bruyne that I can think of.
Lads I've worked with at West Brom, Jerry Rodriguez, Dwight, who I'm with here, the real natural talent players.
Izzy Brown at Luton, Arnaut Danjuma - Bournemouth. These are just players springing in my mind. Allan Saint-Maximin at Newcastle.
I've loved working with them players, they're unfit a lot of the time. They're unconventional. Normally off the ball is not their strength.
I love the challenge of Understanding that type of player and fitting them in a team dynamic because I don't think English coaches are great at it. And I've worked with that many foreign players and obviously working on the continents definitely helped me in that area.
[00:58:11] Marc Millar: Look, as a team sport, you know, the odd individual has to stand out and sometimes you have to cater for them. With those kind of people, is it just a case of slightly polishing, enhancing or just giving them little. Little extras on top of what they already have in abundance and not understanding them?
[00:58:26] Graham Jones: Mark, let's understand them.
[00:58:28] Marc Millar: What mentally.
[00:58:29] Graham Jones: Yeah. What makes them tick.
Learning about the person, affecting that person psychologically and then fitting them because the common strengths and weaknesses with these people you have to fit their weaknesses with your team strengths. But definitely affecting them on a psychological level. Is the.
Is the key for that type of.
[00:58:52] Marc Millar: Player huge part of the game now as well?
[00:58:54] Graham Jones: Yeah.
[00:58:55] Marc Millar: Graham, last question.
Just keen to understand as well.
There'll be many years left to achieve much more. Maybe even that gold medal at the one of the two to complete the set. But do you get greater satisfaction from your coaching side of your CV or from the playing side of the cv?
[00:59:13] Graham Jones: Well, I can't separate anymore because if it ends tomorrow, I've ticked every box.
It's me finding things now that motivate me. Like for example a gold medal at a World Cup.
For example winning the Premier League with Newcastle United.
But if it ended tomorrow, I'd have no regrets.
And it's the most satisfying feeling of them all. So as a player I maxed out and as a coach I maxed out. I've had a go at being a manager.
I've been lucky enough to manage my great club Newcastle United for three games. But I did it.
So I've got no regrets at all.
But I prefer to try and look forward, try and achieve more.
We'll see what the future holds.
[01:00:05] Marc Millar: And there is so much more. Groom. Personally I can't thank you enough. Very kind and really enjoyable chat. I'm sure our listeners will have enjoyed a bit more of an insight I hope into Graham Jones and personally just continued success going forward. Thank you very much indeed.
[01:00:20] Graham Jones: Pleasure for my old team mate. Thanks Marc.
