Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Intro Music.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: So here we are again with another
[00:00:35] Speaker C: episode of the Sports Bench Podcast. Thank you once again for listening to the podcast that brings you stories from sporting stars and legends behind the scenes that you do not often hear about. I'm your host Mark Miller, a retired professional footballer and now financial advisor based in the Northeast of England. In each conversation I will look to examine specific pivotal factors to their successes of each individual, their experiences gained, lessons learned and share these with you.
Hopefully through their own stories and experiences you can reflect on your own goals, aspirations, ambitions and beliefs.
Previously we have been privileged to listen to Graham Jones of Newcastle United in episode one and last time to a golfing legend in Scotland that is Alan Tait.
Another slight change of track for this episode whereby I sat and chatted with Stevie Campbell, a local lad in Dundee who through Dundee United's academy worked and shaped the careers of several players who enjoyed international and global successes and including Andy Robertson, Stuart Armstrong, Ryan Gould and many others.
But before we do so, as always, these episodes would not be possible without the continued loyal and corporate support Today. My thanks go to Lee and the team at Inheart Studios in Gateshead. It's one of the go to recording facilities in the northeast, popular with artists, musicians, sound engineers and music producers and can also provide key editing expertise.
You can visit www.inheartstudios.com for further information.
Now back to Stevie Campbell and how lower level academies other than that of the EPL elite function. So please sit back, enjoy and have a listen. Thank you.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Another day and another sportsbench welcome this time from Sunny Dundee as we sit and chat with a local football academy run by an individual who is another who's excelled in both playing and a coaching career. The playing career lasted about 15 years, predominately with Dundee, took him over to Northern Ireland latterly with Livingston and breaching but unfortunately cut short by a niggling hip injury into coaching seemed a natural fit. Beginning again at Dens park, home of Dundee where he'd spent a large chunk of his career short stack up in the Highlands, Inverness and then close to 10 years at Dundee United before spending a few years at Brecon and now responsible for running his own football academy. I have to say also as a personal friend, a huge sportsbench welcome to Stevie Campbell.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: Thank you very much. What an introduction that is as well Mark.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Always very impressive Stevie and I'm always interested in certainly players that have went from a coaching, sorry come from a coaching and a playing aspect to then obviously progress as well. So it's really Just take you through a few areas of your career. But I'm conscious there'll be a few people won't know Stevie Campbell the player.
How is a coach now, as an established coach, as an experienced coach qualified, how would you look back on Stevie Campbell as a player and describe yourself?
[00:03:30] Speaker A: That's a question I've never been asked, believe it or not.
So I'm going to have to think about that.
What I would say right away is I wish I had the brains at the time to listen to people like Jockey Scott, Archie Knox. You know, I was very, very lucky in my young career to be, you know, I had coached by managers and coaches of that caliber who knew the game inside out. But I suppose to a certain extent, maybe I thought I did as well and maybe didn't do enough work. I always remember Jockey saying to me, it's not enough to do things on the ball, you must do more off the ball. But of course, you're 17, you're 18, you think you should be in the first team before somebody like John Brown or Robert Connor.
So you're arguing me on because I have too much respect for that. But you do question that, you know, and you look back, back and think, you know, I wish I had my coaching brain at that time, the way I tried to coach players, and I would have had much better career, that's for sure.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: I'm sure most of us would. However, that's obviously in hindsight looking back. But what position did you play?
What were your strengths?
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I started off as a left winger, but I don't think I've had the pace to actually do well there. And it was Jockey that moved us to left back and reserved, I think was most successful there. I had 421 caps at left back. Craig Drink played us there, played in the World Cup, Chile. We scored under 19s that we went to the quarterfinals of the cup, beating free West Germany on penalties against Andy Muller and Bodo Eltner and all that. And so that was quite a successful time. And when we won the league under Simon Steinrod, 1991, I think it was probably my best time at Dundee. I think I played with 32, 33 games that year. That was all as a left back and that was my preferred position.
Different for the left backs nowadays, it certainly wasn't an Andy Robertson, that's for sure. But it was more about being a full back, being able to defend, defend, but also being able to pass the ball for the park. And the game's changed, obviously enormously now.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: And defending first and foremost, by. I mean the odd occasions when I played there, the easiness was if you can read the game, everything, everything tends to be in front of you. The last thing you or I probably wanted was a tricky winger.
But you obviously don't welcome fast winger.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:37] Speaker B: Am I right in saying you got a couple of championship medals throughout that time as well?
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Yes. Livingston as well. Yeah, that was a great time under Leashworth and went away to Ireland when I had actually been out for a year.
I think we'd won the league with Dundee under Simon and then played again quite a few games in the Premier League by the end of that season. Steve Pittman had come in a great left back, a different kind of left back for me. You did ask what my strengths were. I think it was that I had intelligence, game intelligence, which probably helped me as a coach when I got older.
I think I lacked a bit of physique and I lacked a bit of pace and I think that's why I had probably better times within the lower leagues than I did in the Premier League. But yeah, and then had a year out of football and that's when I went to Colvine when I left back. Had great times there, Livingston and winning that league that you're talking about, it's no wrong.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: We're not having pace. Some of the best of us didn't have much pace either compared to others. But you mentioned a couple of coaches there. I mean, what was it that stood out more so for Jockey and Archie Knox above others? Because I think during that period at Dundee you were very fortunate to have some high profile and some very good coaches. What stood out for you?
[00:06:39] Speaker A: For them, I think just the sheer professionalism of the whole thing and it was almost good. Coach, Bad Cop, Jockey was very close to the young kids at the time. We had Stevie Friel and Paul Mathers, but people that still remain. Paul Ritchie, good friends to me. Archie was the manager, you know, he was the one that. I think in those days there was a bit of fear. You know, I probably saw that in Craig Levine when I was at United as well. But you had that respect for them. Of course you did. But their football knowledge, their football passion, even to the extent again of they'd be at the S form saying and they'd be travelling along. I wish I would be taking that after doing two sessions at Dundee. So there was that side of Jockey's training and as I said now looking back at the knowledge that he had was just phenomenal. And to coach as a young kid and get you into the good habits that he certainly did.
It was invaluable, you know, and I probably didn't realise I could at the time because I thought every coach was like that because that was my staff. But with all due respect to others, as you move on in your career, that wasn't the case, you know, but their knowledge and their professionalism was just sickening.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: I think as far as training is concerned and any feedback or any examples you hear, there's not a bad word about Jockey's training and how varied and how interesting it was. So it was quite interesting from you.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: And I'll tell you now, I would probably still do things that actually, Jockey's got sessions and I know the game's moved on tremendously, but they're still as good as ever, you know.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Testament, Tim, I related in the introduction about, obviously a problem ongoing with a hip injury. Was that the kind of catalyst to maybe move into. To move, or was it you knee, sorry, misinformed then. So was that the catalyst at that point, knowing you were having problems to move into coaching or to consider coaching? Or had you already kind of formed that opinion that coaching could be for you?
[00:08:19] Speaker A: Do you know what? It's a strange one because it's like anything, there's players in your dressing room that you would say they're going to be a coach. And definitely it wasn't it. I remember laughing. A good friend of mine who was on the radio with. When things were riding high at United and I was getting quite a good name for myself in terms of helping, you know, with the influx of players that were hidden with the Russells and suitors and Goulds and Saints Armstrongs and it was dodgy. But just specifically saying that he was. The Beard Dodge, they were great mates, but he was sort of saying that he wouldn't have said that. Stevie Campbell would have been the coach. And I agree with him. You know, I wasn't the best professional as a player. We like the night suit and that. And he was just saying about how my players were diligent and whatnot. What I would say that was, I was a different coach, but what was a player. I was incredibly professional and so dedicated to do it that I would never let anything get in the way. You were younger at the time as a player, so you do get involved in certain other things that you certainly shouldn't have.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: How did you find the qualifications, Stevie? Obviously you had to be SFA qualified and spend a bit of time down there. Were the demands. Did you find that tougher Was it extra pressure maybe putting on yourself to try and gain those qualifications?
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Possibly. But it was actually a parliament Paul Ritchie that we'd played together at Dundee. Paul had moved on to Hamilton and Hong Kong and that. But again they married Ashley Faye Dundee. So we're still great friends. And it was him and his dad, John Ritchie, the late John Ritchie, absolute legend of a man it was. Paul was probably pushed him to coach with me Hemp. So saying to me as his mate, do you want to go along? So it was 1996, we just won the league at Lanstead. I was only 28, so I thought that was quite early. Although loads are there and now a lot younger. Done my B license at that time and that Livingston the way it was. It was a bit of a hybrid sort of situation where we were training the likes of George McNeil, doing the running side of things at night and obviously Leash during the day. So it was some full time, some part time. Leash was not really a coaching manager. One of the best managers I had in terms of motivation and he did have a great knowledge in the game. But training wise, he was always saying to me on your ghost tv, do you want to take it? Do you want to take it? So I got a real buzz for coaching at that time, which I didn't think I would have had before and just continued in my education in terms of doing then become a youth license diploma, A licence, etc as the years went on. So I was quite young to do these ones, but ten years before I went and done my A licence again wapaul and again, I think it was invaluable. But the youth license diploma was the thing at the time I was asking Terry Butcher and people like that.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: You know, kind of brings me on into my next question because obviously the way it's structured and doing your assessments at largs, did you get nervous in front of peers or in front of some of these?
Well, you just mentioned an international player take a session out to tell them what to do, how to correct them.
[00:10:53] Speaker A: Correct. And it's actually quite funny for somebody like Terry Butcher. You know, I used to just love getting these stories playing against Maradona, especially the infamous Under God. But he was such a gent and he made you feel it easy. I really mean that. I did get nervous. It was never my favorite place and yet I have nothing but respect for all the people down there. You know, for Jim Fleet and all the way down in the days that were taken there, the Jimmy Bowen, et cetera, the list is endless. But they made you feel at ease. But I don't know if it was for me, it was probably like that as a player as well. I was never the most confident in my own ability, so probably that triggered the same as a coach. I was going doing there thinking, oh, you know, should I be here, etc. And so I did get a wee bit of nervous. But as I say, I still wouldn't put up on it as something you have to do, but also something that was again, very professional and very much worthwhile and educational as well. And again, there's people that you met on these courses that you keep in touch with.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: It's lifetime friends as well, isn't it? You've got a bond with them. I'm not going to walk you through all your coaching career, Stevie, but certainly to progress from the SFA to then going to the youths at Dundee.
Did that element, once you'd qualified, pass your assessments and kind of let loose in a sense, did it come natural to you or did you find it difficult at times or initially to find your feet?
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Do you know what I think? I think you ask my strengths as a player. I think when I look at my strengths as a coach, I'd been to college at the time and we'd learned a lot and how to deal with people.
I'd like to think I was a good teammate for most people and you know, and maybe not a bad people for certain coaches as well. You know, I was never disrespectful to any of them or anything like that. So I think first and foremost the big thing was they came for a teaching back then, my brother, my mom, my sister. So I think that.
But was natural.
I have a passion for helping people and I love being in amongst people. So I think the coaching thing, forget the tactics, forget, you know, the side of the qualifications, but I just think in general going in and trying to help people be better people and better players was someone that was a passion to be and so that. So the transition wasn't too difficult at that time during the hybrid at Livingston, they were saying, well, actually I had to go coach into the schools basically to attract people into the, into the games. And again I just felt that I built a bond with, you know, certain people. So I carried that on. When we started with S forms, it was as a part timer at Dundee and of course I got coincided with an injury at the time, as I was saying, yeah, had to give up at 32 and the under 18's job at Dundee just became available.
Under Ray Farlingham as well. Again, one of the best coaches that I've worked with and the learning process, you know, at large. And that was great. But I think there's nothing better than learning from people like Ray Furnigham, Kerry Cameron, who I was every single day working alongside these people, you know, and Jim Duffy, various managers as well.
So I was getting educated every day in terms of the job that I was doing. It was brilliant.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: It kind of leads me on to. Because my next point would have been learning on the job, but also having mentors there that could help you, assist you along the way, but give you their input, their experience. And it must have just been invaluable for a while as well. If you can remember back, I know, slightly a while ago. So going to the youths, what was the remit, what was the brief for you back then at Dundee Youths?
Was it just development for them? Was it just improve their skills or tactically or technically?
What was the outcome that you were kind of tasked with when you first got started at Dundee?
[00:14:18] Speaker A: First and foremost, mentor wise would you would be. Kenny Garland came from a sort of college background as well, you know, teaching background. I was at college doing my sports coaching. So it coincided, obviously, because it would be the football side. We would go and do table tennis, basketball and all that. So there was all these outcomes that you were doing that way. And again, I keep saying to learn to deal with people.
I think Dundee had a good structure at the time. I think they had, you know, people of that calibre, as I'm saying, with a football knowledge. And Ray Vanigan's probably a product, a jockey. Scott, you know, he worked with him as well. So that was. That was me going back to the same football philosophies.
And I'd like to think, yeah, of course it was. I always. I always knew that I was developing players. That was. That was the big thing. Didn't worry about the teams. You know, we're never high in any youth league or anything like that, especially at Dundee. But it was always that in the matter. I was about getting players through. And if I look at that time, I think. I think when me and Jinke ended up having to leave the club through about wasn't administration getting relegated, you know, as you do? We sat and we looked back and we had helped get 45 players their debut in the first team over five years. So, I mean, I don't think they've done that in the last 20 years. So it's something that we are proud of. And I'LL no name them but you can imagine for the Savos of this world and the Dave Mackay's and you know, Gavin Ray all the way sort of up to Stephen Robb and Paul Dixon, Kevin McDonald, you know, the list is endlessly merely Wilkie it was Dave McKay who's back there. You know, I think me learning, fidging we were the 21s myself in the 18s, Scott Robertson's another thing that's went back there as well. So we were very, very successful I think in the philosophies that we had and making sure that was about the development of the player and not about the development of the team. And all these guys, as I say, went and progressed in 45 into the first team. Didn't all make it big at Dundee, but the all went on to have a career elsewhere. So that's something that we're really proud of. And I think it came down. I think Kenny Cameron's got to take a massive amount of credit because he was the man over on the whole, the whole shebang at that time.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: I'll probably come back to that kind of setup in a second or two. I mean but obviously there was then there was a short stint going up to Inverness with Craig Brewster and then I would imagine he took his whole coaching team to Canada at Dundee United simply because I would imagine it's. It was just too big an opportunity for him as well to turn down. But how did your relationship come about with Craig Wooster?
[00:16:36] Speaker A: I'd known Craig was the same age, had known Craig through the Dundee circles, obviously played against him a few times at the school and all that.
I think a couple of things professionally as well. I wouldn't have seen all mates but obviously he'd heard he went up to Inverness and Dundee was actually quite strange because he actually played against Dundee in a game that was, you know, we were actually nine points clear going in the last six games. And it was amazing how probably now at the time I'd been five years full time. But your own job is affected by the first team, you know, you didn't realise that. You just think you're 90 hours a week doing it and you think Rob Douglas sitting down with the bricks, you know, obviously.
So you're thinking that you're not infallible but everything's okay and then we get relegated. But the same week Craig had played against Dundee, a 10 draw that nearly relegated us. But I think it came later on at Livingston, ironically. But Craig had actually just spoken to me saying, look, would you consider Coming up to Inverness, he says, I'll look at, you know, your track record, they know you as a guy.
He says, we're looking to change things up there. There was a lot of great people up there as well that still remain friends to this day, believe it or not. Charlie Christie and Danny MacDonald, et cetera, and Scott Kelliker, who got friendly in my time up there. So it was a no brainer, obviously, when I lost my job and I told Blue the truth, I wanted to stay Dundee if, even if we weren't doing it, I was getting to keep my job. But unfortunately I did that. Peter Marv had to say it was time to go for myself and Ray and still probably feel that was a bit unjust. But it's football, you know, no bit about it at all. It was probably the sorest one though, I must admit. And then when I went up to Inverness, I think everybody in Dundee, including my family, says, stevie, you will end up at Dundee United. You know, now, having come through an incredible family of Dundee supporters, myself included, you know, I played in eight derbys, only won two of them, but I was quite passionate in these as well. There was no way I would say that I would end up at Dundee United. But Bru was so successful at Endness, you know, and obviously things weren't working at United, got the call.
He'd been impressed with how it worked in that six months with the youths, quite transformed quite a few of them and though it's not important, but the team had really improved as well, was doing quite well in the league.
So he offered me the job, you know, to go to Dundee United and to come back down the road, which I must have had a real homeboy, which was a bigger tact as well. So again, nothing but respect for Craig Brewster and what an opportunity that was to come back to the city of Dundee, maybe prove Peter Maher wrong that he shouldn't have let us go.
But that was the sole reason going to a club like Dundee United, which I must admit I went with my eyes open. There was people like Dave Bowman, an absolute legend and actually took his job. But I respect him to this day because he phoned me that he lost his job for me coming in just to say, stevie, no, Hartfield's a great lad, blah, blah, blah, and I'll never forget things like that, you know, that's
[00:19:28] Speaker B: a great thing you talked about. Kenny Cameron, you mentioned earlier, my question that was going to come on the back of that was who sets the culture for an academy? You've set up at a football club back then, you've mentioned Kenny Cameron.
Is it the manager, is it the club, the board, the directors, who kind of sets it and who'd maybe set it at United?
[00:19:48] Speaker A: I think that's. I think that's a brilliant question, because
[00:19:52] Speaker B: I'm just keen to understand, to get an insight.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would say that I've come across, you know, different variations. An answer here, because there's times that the youth system can be separate at a club, which I don't like. Of course, the great thing at United was when St Andrews would train together. You know, if you've got a couple of players and there's a few injured in the first team, what an opportunity that is for them, the managers, to say, you know, bring them over. But it's got to be, you know, that the players are well drilled. Well, you know, good professionals, good people being ingrained in good habits. So that culture is set by the people in the youth system.
Of course, the head of youth is absolutely massively important. That's what Kenny Cameron was. It's always good to have a good relationship with the manager.
I saw my time at United, I think, first and foremost, and Craig Levine coming especially.
He wanted everything to be the same in the youths as what it was in the first team, which is obviously, you know, the best thing to do,
[00:20:46] Speaker B: even down to playing stuff, even formations.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Yeah, even doing it, going zone on, marking it. Because he just felt, if I'm asking you, Stevie, for a player, he's coming in knowing exactly how we work and, you know, like, does he need that transition to go through there for the first team? So it is a bit of both, you know, and as I say, I even remember speaking to Stevie Frail when he was at Celtic and I was at United. And he wasn't saying it was separate, but the team that Barlow, Lance, of course, Lennox Town had opened the door that he sometimes felt that there wasn't that bond that we had at Dundee United with a progression of players. I think I had the same at Dundee.
The only time it was difficult at Dundee, I must admit, was when, you know, it was probably the most exciting time for Dundee fans whenever I was there. But there seemed to be just a wee bit of a divide in terms of players getting through for the youth
[00:21:32] Speaker B: system, obviously, pathway being available players like
[00:21:35] Speaker A: Claudio Kaneja and Ravan Elliot and Georgina Mzazi. So, again, I could understand now being a wee bit more morally wise as to why that was and didn't stop myself and Ray Farming. I was in the Same passion and trying to speak to the chairman and the manager to say we push these players on. But yeah, interesting question, Mark. I've answered that.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely not. It's good. I mean, I think it's logical. But I think if, if a 16 or a 17 year old is strong enough is good enough, it's still a big jump.
But to have them train with the first team, I think sounds as if it gives them a boost. It also sets an example to the other guys when they get pulled over and would you just, would that happen regularly throughout your time heading up and then would they just go back to the youths and maybe another couple would come over and obviously it'd be earned. It's got to be earned.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Almost had to be earned. Of course it was sometimes positionally, you know, somebody was in the well and things like that. I mean, I must admit as well, one thing that has ingrained in me, and I even say it now to my academy players here, when I look at Paul Dixon or Scott Robertson, they were not the ones under 18 to get the shout. They weren't even the best players. Under 12s, under 13s, under 14s coming through the academy that we hear a lot more nowadays with social media and all the Scotland teams, etc. You know, they're stars too young, I would say to a certain extent. But Paul and Robert, probably two of mine that there was probably they would be first admitted as well, better players, better technical players, getting more chances to go up with the first team. But they just kept calling them slow burners, getting better, better and better and believing in themselves, believing what I was trying to do with them and you know, individually make them better each day.
And they were the ones that actually went on to have the best careers. They're the ones that probably gave them more, you know, I would say more satisfaction as a coach because they've been written off, you know, and even some managers had said at the time not they're not going to make his db, but you believed in them, they believed in themselves and it just kept going. There were no stars, as I say,
[00:23:38] Speaker B: at a young age, I would imagine that would happen a lot in, in a number of academies where players might be discarded too early. So I think from your perspective and from you as that youth coach and having that trust and confidence, then it's understanding each player's timing or where they are on their journey, or not just where they can get to, if they can get to it, but the timing element of when they're ready.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. And that's why you talk about the culture first and foremost. But you've also got to have a pathway through to the first team and you've got to have a manager, I suppose, who's in a position to. And has the bottle more than anything to go and throw the kids in, you know, and go back to probably at United and Jackie put in Sutter and Gould now we all knew how good they were. I'd actually put them in at 14 in my youth team semi final against Queen of the South. We lost the game but I never regret it because they were good enough to go and play at that level. And I see United still doing that now, which is brilliant to see. Not always that was great.
But to go into the first team at the age and you touched on that earlier as well, their mentality handled it no problem. But it gave everybody a boost, you know, the coaches, myself and it gave the other players, you know, be incentive as well and say, you know, if they can do it, why can't we sort of think so. But you must always have that pathway. And because I have seen some. A bit of a brick wall probably a lot of time, you know, I wouldn't say I've good at it. I was very passionate about it. Now, I'm not saying I get it now, but I always had a big strong feeling for some players and then if they got around about the first team, it was difficult for the first team in terms of their training week. We would be developing them, you know, maybe 10, 11 times out on the grass and then doing other things in the background like SNC and of course, you know, knowledge from the video analysis etc. Which I felt was important. They would then get in the first team.
There was the abolishment of the reserve league sometimes there was, you know, first team of playing many games maybe in Europe. So these players actually miss out a wee bit on their development and always felt that was a massive thing, you know, to develop them up to 18, 19 and then no have that next step to the first team. It wasn't always the case or to
[00:25:46] Speaker B: continue,
[00:25:48] Speaker A: maybe even enhance it a wee bit more.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Enhance it.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: There was times when it progressed, in my opinion, a wee bit and that was always quite hard to take. And I look back to some players and think they shouldn't be playing in the leagues, they should have been at that level, you know. But I know for a fact that Dundee United have certainly addressed that now. But I think mainly it came with an abolishment of the Viziers League at the time, you know, because my time at United, I think 10 years at United, I think I had about seven different titles. And that came because of the SFH and this, that and what was the best format for the under 19?
[00:26:19] Speaker B: So a new role, obviously I'll get onto the managers a little bit later. But in your role overall, do you have that. Was there that kind of authority in line in to say, well, this player, we think he's ready, or I think he's ready not just to let him train with you, but he's pushing for starts or benches, etc. Or is it the other way around that the manager comes to you, does he kind of give you that leeway to push and force and update him? I think again, it's a generalisation. I know different managers will be different.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it was most definitely different. And I think as well, I've got to say that there is times, it's almost like a cycle where, you know, there might not be players that are good enough to get up to that level for a certain amount of years. You know, I think when I first went into United, good Willy was in my youth team and Gary Kenneth and Greg Cameron. But we did have a wee bit of a two, three years, you know, there wasn't so many that were pushing in and I think that came through the standards of Craig Levine and the type of player that he was bringing in. And ironically Craig radicalised the youth system and then obviously moved Ian Cathroup, Graham Livingstone, who'd done an incredible, brilliant job in the past and Graham moved on and Ian Cath was just a modernisation of coaches, etc.
Had been there for 30 years and was responsible for so many kids, especially for the Glasgow earlier coming in. But Craig saw what the future would be and like Sami and Carter and how the coaching game has changed so much. So he obviously came to the four at that time. So there was a wee spell where we didn't get too many through and then of course over time working with these players and changing the whole development system, that was an absolute.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: And again, I'll go on to list a good few of them and we'll chat about a couple of them. But what are the biggest challenges then?
You looking the overview from the academy's perspective for most 16 or 17 year olds, is it they want things too early, is it impatience, is it they're not ready? I mean, what's the biggest challenges that you think they've got to overcome at that age at 16, 17, because probably think they Know it all.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I suppose there's some, but I think if you've had your hands on them, but if they've been brought up in a good environment, which I'd like to think we did at Dundee United. Now, speaking about that time, I don't think there was any that would be allowed to get above the station, shall we say, because that came from the management culture, again, the youth side as well, and it comes to the people side of things. So I think we had a great environment in which to work, you know, going all the way from the first team all the way down to, you know, eights, nines, which has got even younger now, as everybody knows. So there wasn't too much problems there.
I think there had to be a realization for certain people that, well, everybody can make it. You know, the system is that you've got 16 in a youth team, you know, you're lucky if you're getting one through, you know, everybody knows the statistics, but when you start to go one or two or three through, the other ones do think they can make it as well. But I'm talking more about the ones I went on to make it. There certainly wasn't problems there, but it does then create its problems doing a bit where these guys might just go on to play in the lower leagues rather than, you know, in the first team at the club that you're working at, especially a club like Dundee United.
So you almost end up like a social worker, you know, because you want to give your time great to the Ryan Golls and the John Sewers, but you've also to give your time to the guys that have. Unfortunately, worst thing of the job itself. I know someone that I look back and enjoyed and it's saying to somebody that you're no good enough, you know. And again, we've had varying, you know, differences in how people have reacted to that as well. I know it's an old cliche and you always say the players are going to go and prove me wrong, but to go back to it's, it's United, it was good because we were training together. You know, you're on the pitches together because we're at St Andrews, there was that pathway that they could see. The players, the managers always came at med games, you know, not always, but when they could, they were there. There was dialogue most of the time from myself that always, always, you know, wanted my input, which was great. But of course you're not going to agree on everything, football wise as well.
And so you do have your discussions in that. But I think. I think that was the. The best bit about it and of course, in Jackie's time as well, and the getting on the bench for the spell, which was not something that I ever, you know, wanted today and not something that I ever thought would happen, but I was looking back, it was great because players that you'd helped so much and you'd spent so many years on, suddenly you actually had the first team game, seeing them making their debuts, playing well, and you could always have a wee word with them at halftime
[00:31:02] Speaker B: and even just little things that they've got that trust and confidence in you.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: Correct. And I think that was Jackie Stinkman that way to look at, turn and look at the bench and know that if worked for me now nobody's nervous. And it certainly worked, you know, at that time.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: And you touched on it as well. I mean, again, there was an element that we're talking that the players were hungry, a good squad, a good group of players sort of bouncing off each other and getting the better culture again.
But again, you were. You preempted one of my questions and I know you care because I could tell already.
[00:31:29] Speaker A: Oh, yeah? Yeah.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: But it was tough to tell players that. That we'd have to move on or contracts wouldn't be renewed.
And we. We both know there are success stories elsewhere.
Failure's a tough thing to deal with, but because you care, it's a difficult conversation, isn't it? It must have been really horrible at times.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: I think I learned, and I say again, I think I learned for the best. Go back to my Dundee days. I had a good upbringing myself as a young aspiring coach because I was quite young to go into the game. But when I talk about my mentors like Kenny Carroll and like Ray, I immediately saw, you know, when they were do that rather than me do it at the time. I learned for them and they'll probably start to do it for my Inverness and then United days, that you just have to be bluntly honest with them, you know, I think that's the best thing. Don't pull the wheel over their eyes, don't tell them you've got a trial at Barcelona because of the way they've done the other. Just be bluntly honest with them, always try and help them in terms of another career, but of course in terms of another club as well.
And I think that served me certainly in good stead because when I think the amount of relationships that have built up with the. The amount of people that still keep in touch with me, it's probably looking back the best part of the job and it's not just the ones that made it. It's actually great when you meet or you get a text or whatever from the boys that didn't make it.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Sometimes it's just a thank you, isn't it?
[00:32:42] Speaker A: You always feel that you've played a great part in their upbringing, in their life as a person. You know, they didn't quite good enough to make it. They've probably realized that now as well.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: So I think, I think they've still got that respect. Yeah. When I always look back and think about certain places, players that got released early and it probably did them a favor. I think you may have played with them at Dundee. Brian Grant.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Oh wow.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Brian was Frankie's. Frankie's brother in law.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah.
[00:33:05] Speaker B: But Brian went up to Highland League, played in Highland League, but he ended up working at bp.
[00:33:10] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: And I'm not going to talk about salaries, but he traveled worldwide and what a career he developed for himself.
Which may not have happened. Yeah. Which may not have happened if he hadn't been released by Brandy. So it was a catalyst to then work, play in the Highland League, play part time and then get a consultant. And I guarantee you now, I haven't seen him for a long time. I guarantee you now he'd be thankful of.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: Of exactly who told him.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: Yes, an element of failure or disappointment. So I think it can work for you.
[00:33:38] Speaker A: I think so as well. But I think also it comes down how that person reacts from it as
[00:33:41] Speaker B: well, you know, individual.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: I do worry, you know, the ones that could go to the road that you know and if they're no fate, your hometown and you kind of, you know, help them when they leave you. It's always a line, especially in this day and age, you know, but that's where the families come into, etc. Etc. But you never forget them. And as I say, you build up that bond and that relationship because usually you work with them for three years, especially at the youth level of coming into the academy and going into the under 18s, which is what I did predominantly for most of the time and I felt that was the best apprenticeship. But you get so close to the, you know, and maybe sometimes do close
[00:34:20] Speaker B: to them on and occurring. Absolutely comes back to people again as you mentioned back at the start and then the title changes, Youth Academy director.
Did it become really 24 7? Was it all encompassing? Was it doing everything? Was it managing, was it coaching? Was it financial? The planning, the Budget standards, the styles, monitoring the coaches.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Was. It must have been so intense without maybe realising at the time there. Because you're passionate about it.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: Absolutely. Looking back, you're basically married to the job and you're married to the club. And it's funny because I think I'm mentor for quite a few now. You know, Paul Dixon has just left Hearts to go into Dundee United under 16s where we regularly meet for a coffee. I just had a reference for another day for United, Scott Robertson. You know, probably one of my first early prodigies. It was actually funny a few weeks ago I couldn't have made it because of my own academy, but they played one another in the Youth cup quarter final. You know, it was Scott in one bench for Dundee's under 18s, Dicker and the other for Harts. And I'm thinking, God, I'm getting old when there's two of my prodigies that I took for 11 years of age. But that respect thing is always there and it's great to see that they're probably doing the.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: Was it easy to get all consumed in that, Stevie, when you went academy director?
[00:35:33] Speaker A: That's the advice. Iggy. Them now, Mark, you know, Scott went to United first. Actually, we were at bigger at a time he was signed for us. As I was just trying to say, remember, you've got a wife and three kids. But you know what, met him another week there for four hours. Probably only four hours he got off. It's almost impossible if you want to be successful as a coach. And I did and I think it was. But you do have to just totally put everything into it.
I always like to bring a bit of humor into it. I remember promising Susan, who's been amazing, you know, through the years because she knew my passion was football.
But there was one day, I think it was 39 days and I remember that hadn't had a day off and it says, look, come on, we'll go for a wee coffee in St Andrews on the Sunday, St. Andrew's all places that ever traveled. Every day we needed, but it's going to be coffee shop, let's go for a wee day. And then Craig Lavin, Texas, in the morning. We was under 12 playing Stephen Emily. Well, gotta say, at 12. And it was see you there at snow. Are you going?
See you there. And that was the expectation that came with being all these different titles. And you do. You just get so consumed with that to the extent of not having a life and a family life away for it.
[00:36:37] Speaker B: And I think it's one of those things that the more you do something anyway as part of your job remit or what's expected, then it becomes even more than normal then, doesn't it?
[00:36:45] Speaker A: Exactly. And I must admit, going back to Dundee United days, we didn't have the staff that they've got down, you know. So I'd like to think that what are we about? Overworked. We didn't moan about that. We'll look back and we. Fond memories. But and was a lot, you know, it was. And it's probably no healthy if I'm being honest. And when I look back now and I look to where I am now, I've probably got the best work life balance that I've ever had. But I couldn't do it again, you know, I think it's a young man's game. I'm only 54, but I really don't believe I could put in the hours that I did, especially at W United, not continuously, not say jokingly, but again, there's probably a lot of truth in it. She saw more of me when I was at Inverness. That's funny because I was staying up there again. No, because you know, like the thing successful time and a great time with incredible memories still great people that still keep in touch with now, players and staff still there. So no, no regrets whatsoever, even in the way it ended. But it was time consuming, you know.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: Yeah, for me it was just trying to get an insight and an understanding pulled all over the place with matches at weekends, midweek matches, scouting players.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: I mean, I would tap into St Andrews University.
I would get people a cause that would help in the nutrition side, you know, I would always look to outside influences who are experts in that field to try and get help, you know, just because we maybe didn't have the sort of resources and facilities that they've got now.
But you will just try to do everything you could to give that person a chance, chance of making it to the first team.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: And again, commendable as well. And I think, as you say, it's testament that a lot of people keep in touch. Thank you. And there's good relationships there. But were you also with that responsibility involved in either board meetings or planning meetings or coaches and so managers?
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Yeah, things like that. Yeah. Board meetings, not so much, probably. Strangely enough, probably I was at more board meetings. I was at breaking, you know, as a number three, then a number two and even looking at that sidewalk, that wasn't for me. My passion was on the training field especially.
That's where I think I came alive. Even if I was, I like the things. Although some of the young lads, when I meet them now, didn't say this, but I was feeling a bit overworked, a bit stressed. You didn't realise you were just engulfed in everything.
I thought the minute that I stepped on the training field, I was still back to being that passionate a release
[00:39:11] Speaker B: from all those other roles as well.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: That's what that is. But what you didn't want to do is get overload, that sort of thing. And looking back, that probably was the case.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: Were you doing less coaching then? And was that because there were so many other elements to the job that kind of demanded your attention?
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: And that was pretty much the passion and the enjoyment, wasn't it?
[00:39:28] Speaker A: After the digs, after welfare, as I said to you, I changed sort of the eating habits and the digs, et cetera. So anything else that you do, you know, for the betterment of the boys, you're taking away from. What's the most important thing is on that training field, you know. But at the time, I did a.
I didn't think that at the time you were just, as I keep saying, just so much money to the job and so much engulfed in that that you were just making sure you were doing every single thing.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: And what was the one objective? What was the academy?
What was demanded from the academy? What was the ultimate from the academy? Was there one or two players a year? Was it one or two players that sold?
[00:40:06] Speaker A: There was never anybody above, you know, and that includes the chairman at the time, Stephen Thompson, his dad before that, who had great relationships with me as well. Every manager that I worked with. I never felt under pressure from any of them. I put myself under pressure. I know that because that's the way I was in terms of the job. I even look back and think, could it even be being a Dundee fan and coming to a club like United?
No, everybody knew me because I wasn't exactly a top, top player, but maybe even taking over for somebody, a legend like boy. Although we ended up good friends and working together for the last five years of it.
So there was loads of things, but I think also just the professionalism that I got for as a player for Johnny Scott and Archie Knox, and then probably even more so when I went to the coaching game, Kenny, Cameron and Dick, that was the standards that we set. They're still setting them now in academy, believe it or not, even though we're working with kids. But I think because of that and because I look at that record of 45 and five years at Dundee, you go, well, look, we like United here. There's better resources. You want to surpass that, you know, so you're probably putting yourself in the pressure. But nobody at all managers, board ever said a number or anything that you had to get in. You just knew, especially club like Dun United, that that's the history. You know, you look at what they have achieved over the years and continue to do it now. So you knew you were in a job where the pressure was, you know, you do have to get players in that.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: Phenomenal, isn't it?
[00:41:28] Speaker A: I certainly like to think that looking back, we did that. You know, I never say me because it's a system. It's people that will watch me at the time, it's the players, it's the one that ultimately makes it ourselves. We're just there to give them that wee bit of advice. And I'll forever be thankful for that.
I think one of the proudest moments this last year was going to watch Stuart, his dad, you know, somebody that I took for Inverness was freed for two clubs. We talked about that earlier, you know, told Aberdeen he was the strong enough, went up to Inverness. I probably used my Inverness connections when I got Stuart to United for nothing.
And obviously to this day we keep in touch and I think as an example, I suppose like Andy Robson as well, at least at a certain age you bounce back if you've got that resilience, you get the help of a coach or two and you keep believing in your own ability.
I think these two would be the best example to anybody that's had rejection. You know, when I went through there to, you know, Scotland game and watch them sing, fly over Scotland and go and play in that first game. It still gives me goosebumps now, you know, for somebody that I spoke to, Gussie park, whose world was shattered, didn't think he'd hear football. Yeah, that's the bits that just give you incredible satisfaction and incredible pride.
[00:42:44] Speaker B: It's almost, it's almost a fairy tale for Andy Robertson. I mean, I don't think anybody could envisage that. Leaving Queen's park whilst released by Celtic. Leaving Queen's park to come to Tanner Dice and then that journey and into captain's company. If, if any dreams can come true, that's probably one of them. And we'll, we'll touch on it again.
[00:43:01] Speaker A: I remember going to Diggs, you know, he was settling on his day with me on the coaching front. You know, that was Jackie and his team. That was amazing. For him. But we looked at him in the digs. He went, you know, and Soapy and young Joe, Northern Ireland, Michael McGovern, my brother. And, you know, you had to do all these. This stuff as well. I felt like that was part of my job. But the laughs were hard. You know,
[00:43:26] Speaker B: those players rubble off on each other. I'm also conscious that again, we chatted briefly before, before having a chat on the recorder, but unfortunately there seems to be. With some academies, it kind of just hoovers up a lot of players because it's a numbers game. I mean, I know it's a completely different relevant level, but I always look at Chelsea's academy and think it's like a separate financial business, how much money it generates from players that they know will never make the team.
And thankfully at Dundee Knight, it doesn't seem to be the case.
Sold a few players of late, but yeah, I mean, it's still. I think if you have too many, then some more might get lost or some more get disillusioned. It's kind of getting a balance as an academy director, as to how many you could cope with as well.
[00:44:11] Speaker A: Correct.
I know it sounds daft cause people's lives, but it's always good for debate. I was actually thinking that bumped in Andy Goldie last week, actually, you know, who's obviously in the position now and doing an incredible job. So we're a great chat about the past with a great chat about how the game's developed and how the modern coach and how obviously the resources they've got. We talked about Dundee, talking about Wendy and now, you know, just a general brilliant chat. But the one thing I think that I would get annoyed at right now is that, you know, Dundee United is for how brilliant they're doing. A lot of the players are leaving before, I think, the fans.
When I think back to Stewart, I think to Ryan Dow, I think to Keith Watson, probably at Betaine. Goldie was the one, of course, what a guy, you know, what a career he has had. Although some people would argue that he only played 20 games for man United. The ones that I mentioned before played over 100. That's for me, a youth system and a youth coach. That's your bread and butter, that's your pride. That to me is what it's all about, you know, And I would, I think, get a wee bit frustrated and a wee bit annoyed that if the club was selling them before the fans, who are the most important people, get to see them, get to get the wee boys with that Armstrong on The back of G Su Johnny Russell actually bumped into Scotty Allen last week when he was coming up to play against Dundee. And again, you know, that lace a bit of talk about what a laugh at the times.
We're probably talking too much about the coaching side, but the Bond was still there. It was just brilliant. We talked about, you know, this, that, whatever, but he was another one that didn't, you know, he moved on early for other reasons as well. I just think you work at the club, you want to see these players play.
Hundreds of milestones for me, you know.
[00:45:49] Speaker B: Were you fortunate, Stevie, that through your time at Dundee United you have people like obviously Craig Brewster, Jackie was there, Mick Sue, Peter Houston, Craig Levine.
Were you lucky in being in charge and involved in the academy that all the managers seemed to buy into it or gave youth a chance or understand that that was a future not just on the United's history, they'd done it for decades before, but did they really buy into it?
[00:46:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: A positive for you?
[00:46:15] Speaker A: Yeah, as long as it was good enough. Of course they did.
I think we were lucky as well that we had good relationships, you know, and the players knew that. There was the family atmosphere, which I think is massive in any club. Just when you talk about the culture had the right culture at the time and I think that even helps more players to want the company manifest itself, doesn't it? 7 year old Robertson who came for Queen's park, he probably spoke five clubs that week, but dung United and obviously the time it was, Jackie seemed to be able to, you know, bring these boys in because they knew they had a pathway.
They thought it was a pathway, I suppose. But going to the Premiership, not in the Champions League, etc. And captain Scotland, that's just an amazing thing. But I think United should be proud of that and the people that won there at the time. Yeah. And I look back on everything with Dundee days and I do use the word lucky because it was.
It was a wee bit to the detriment of family life, I do admit that. But I've certainly got that now in what I'm doing. Almost like making up for that.
But it's almost like because you've done that, you can chill out now, you can sort of look back and day because you only look back with fond, fond memories. You know what I mean?
[00:47:28] Speaker B: As you say, it's a young person's time as well.
I hope not, but it's been proven correct for them. But do you think the Brentford model can ever kind of go further with clubs than they might just ditch academies and ditch the youth side of things.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: I really hope not as well. I do, I really hope not. Of course, I was at Dun Unite when Ali Coote went away. Doing there just towards the end of my time as well. And they're B team.
I actually thought at the time, I must admit, Mark, that that would be a trend. That would almost be a domino theory. It's no happen and I'm glad of that. Of course, Glasgow Rangers and have got the B team set, but everybody's got their candidates. I suppose where I am now, the laughable thing is taught earlier it didn't happen when I was at the clubs, but they're taking boys from my academy. Both clubs, you know, five and six years of now, I don't know if that's right. I know they've got a great education at both clubs, at both local clubs. I love to see them going to both local clubs. I was attending two last night. I went to Rangers, believe it or not, 2011s, you know. So I've not got the answers for everything. Time will tell in terms of that. But it's certainly getting a young man's game in the coaching sense. It's certainly younger guys in terms of going into clubs as well. It's quite, you know, scary, if I'm
[00:48:42] Speaker B: being honest, and I probably know your answer to this one. But look, predominantly there's two big clubs in Scotland that got all the money, or most of the money anyway. But the provisional clubs, it's the only way they could really compete, isn't it, by having a vibrant pathway, youth system coming through and develop players, whether that be as a selling club anyway. I think most clubs, even Celtic and Rangers now are selling clubs. It's the understandable part of it. But surely it's got to be for any club to be a successful attempt to continue.
[00:49:12] Speaker A: Absolutely. But I do think the biggest worry is that, as I said before mentioned, the situation, they ended with quite a lot of them moving on and yes, they've probably balanced the books in terms of the finance there, but I don't know, I'm maybe old school. I just want to see the players play for the club for longer. And I know it's not the days of Paul Hegarty and Davy nelly and Paul McLenny up at Dundee anywhere. I could probably say Sean Dillon at Dundee United. Players dynasty at clubs for the length of time now and that's due to society and agents and that a lot of things I will not go into. But I'd like to think two, three years is a good. A good time to stay at a club, you know, before you move on to bigger, in some cases better things as well.
[00:49:51] Speaker B: And we'll come on to that very shortly. But I mean, another. Another question I'd be interested in understanding. You're born and bred here, you still live here, especially United. Why is it that United seem to be able to attract and advance and develop those players? And obviously similar with that period at Dundee initially, but especially United, why do they seem to be able to. Is it that culture? Is it what's behind the scenes? Is it the coaches? I mean, is it a multitude of things, but in your opinion?
[00:50:18] Speaker A: I do. I think it's a combination I'm getting close to.
[00:50:19] Speaker B: Because it's been going back to the 80s.
[00:50:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. I mean, that was going back to Ray McKinnon and boys like that Ferguson. You know, I would say that United probably haven't really had that go back that 40 years. There's no big many years that they haven't developed, you know, so when you talk about coaches and we talk about culture, there's so many different coaches that have walked in and out that door, you know, so they all get a wee bit of credit. One that I certainly never mentioned earlier, I was lucky as well. I worked with him, was Tony Dock, you know, who's now at Killy. And I look at the development side. He was somebody in the United days that I learned. He was really 21s as well at that time.
So people like that. United just attracted people like that as well, which were as important as the young players that they're getting as well. I think it's the reputation to a certain extent. Dundee are certainly now, you know, they've got the school at St. John's going.
We did start that 10 years ago myself in gardening.
Ian was the brainstorm behind that, but started 10 years ago, of course, it was then taken over by the performance schools sfa, which is the way forward. But Dundee have now went into the same St John's as you now, have moved it to Bald Dragons, where I very much heavily involved in speaking to loads of parents and loads of the kids that that's where they want to be. That's where a lot of them have ended up. As I said earlier, we've got a few. St. Johnson have got a few Rangers, you know, that have come on here as well. So you're still always on hand to give advice to parents, advice to the kids, and that's why I've Loved them for years, just on a slightly different younger situation of less hours, less hassle.
That's true.
[00:51:54] Speaker B: And just going back to again, finishing off really on that kind of spell. Was it kind of easy or easier to coach a kind of bunch of individuals just because of the talent, the ethic, the hard work, the dedication they had? Yes, they sound as if they played a bit and had a bit of a giggle off the park, but because there was that nucleus and that standard, was it slightly easier to coach a group place like that?
[00:52:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Elliot park and I often say about young coaches, not here, that when I look back at the ones that were mentioned a lot, the Goulds and Arms, Sonny Goulds and even Scotty Fraser to a certain extent, the suitors, you know, they'd been weighing car trophy, as everybody knows, clearly called him a genius at the time, before people were aware of that, they were probably the most educated players. That effort into my youth team, challenge them up and at 4 you're thinking, wow, you know, they've learned loads, whereas probably over time before I've had to teach them a wee bit more. These ones seem to be so much more educated on the tactical side and their attitude was fantastic and the thirst to learn was fantastic as well. And it's what I loved. I just loved.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: And they set examples amongst the rest of the group and the younger group as role models.
[00:53:07] Speaker A: It's almost like the benchmark, you know, that's the way it is and that's the.
[00:53:11] Speaker B: You mentioned a few of them earlier, Stevie.
I'm going to mention a few and a few stats and this is where I'm in agreement probably with you and it's just to get some thoughts on you as well. So Stuart Armstrong played about 150 games for United. Gary McKay, Steven 110, John Sutter about 60, Johnny Russell about 100, Ryan Gold might be in all games about 40 and Andy Robinson about 40.
Every single one of them, you can argue, left a much better player, went on to better things just because it's higher levels and I'm not certainly knocking it because Harry Suter has done very well going away and it's still Michael Scott Allen. Harry left after two games, Scott Allen left after only eight.
[00:53:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:53:51] Speaker B: So I think I'm in agreement. And it sounds as if you're saying from a coach is get experience, get further development, get some savvy and games under your belt before making that, before making that transition, that jump.
[00:54:05] Speaker A: And I know that's no easy in this day and age with agents and how much you know, obviously going to different clubs in terms of what the money could be as well, if they could just be patient, you know, I know it's so difficult, but if they can be and just learn their trade and give the fans something to shout about as well before the move on. They've still got 12, 14 years of it.
You know, I've seen one or two that have, shall we say, went too early and you'll never wish them badly, but you do, you do worry about it, you know, if they've went too young, because we've seen it before.
[00:54:42] Speaker B: Five of them have got Scottish caps. Harry Sutter obviously capped at Australia and it's still a travesty for me, but at some point Ryan Gould hasn't been
[00:54:49] Speaker A: capped
[00:54:52] Speaker B: as a group. I mean, I like to see players get games under the belt. I think I get agents, money take it when it's going. And obviously some Premiership clubs down in England come, come along to take the younger players. So it's just, it's kind of been brave enough in a sense of being advised, maybe correctly.
What did you guys add to them as coaches? I mean, just that group, I'm saying. So the talented bunch of individuals, obviously driven, obviously hungry, they seem to have the work ethic on the pitch whenever they played.
What did you add to them?
[00:55:22] Speaker A: I think you need to ask them that. You know, I'd like to think we inspired them first and foremost. I'd like to think they knew how much we cared about them. You know, I'm saying me because it wasn't just me at the time. And of course we gave them football knowledge, you know, in the day to day trading that we did with them and the day to day individual training that we did with them, the video analysis that we did with them, you know, it was a part of education.
Would like to think we gave them a lot of that. I think they saw our passion and desire as well, which would rub off on them.
And I think we just became like a mentor and a friend to them. And I think that's something that I said earlier, Mar, that the relationship that we had, you know, these players are a lot more.
I'll always be there, you know, anytime you meet up, in a wee text here and there, when they play for Scotland and all that. I've always given a wee text and things like that. It's just, it's just bring back great memories, if I'm being honest. And I think that's the most important thing is the people, even their dads at times, you Know I'll drop you a wee text. And that other ones here, that to me is what were built at that time, though. It's great. I love it.
[00:56:28] Speaker B: I think yourself and the coaching staff, it should be immense pride when you see where those players have went. When you see where those players have went on to. I make apologies here because this is. I sat with Graham Jones down at Newcastle a couple of weeks ago as well. And this is. This is two questions that I asked him. And the reason I'm asking him is because one of them was quite interesting.
That was kind of an elite group of players between, I'm going to say, 2010, 2013, 14, at various levels, coming through.
When he was at Belgium, he then found it easier and preferred and loved to work with elite players simply because the thought process was different. They kind of got things quicker, took things on board.
Again, thinking back, and I'm not being dismissive of the rest of the players, but could you understand that thinking?
[00:57:12] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely.
[00:57:13] Speaker B: Coaching kind of the elite players at that level at Dundee United at the time?
[00:57:17] Speaker A: Absolutely, yes. And, you know, I used to actually sometimes say, I'd love to have one session.
You know, I know that's probably the ones. I'd love to have one session. That's a personal point of view, what every one of the brilliant ends just to see how the session was, you know, because you never actually got that. And again, that sounds disrespectful to the others, but that certainly wasn't the case. I did have some managers say to me, and you can hear that in my voice now, and I suppose I remain nameless. I didn't mean it that way, but they basically said to me at times, save your voice and turn to him and him, but make sure you concentrate on that.
I think my upbringing could not allow me to do that, if I could say that, and wanted to give the Same Stevie Campbell, Mr. Ryan Gould, a John Sutter, Stuart Amazon, as I did to the players, that nobody would know their names because they've no one want to make it. And did that dilute what was getting them? Possibly, possibly. But that was the system that we're always in, you know, because you always had a youth team, you always had 16 players to train.
It ended up being philosophy. You used to get a lot of first team players, you know, that would come back and train with you before they'll be ready to go back, you know, I had Callum Butcher with me, I had Brian Graham, I had Mitch Gardiner, John Daly. I mean, the list is endless and it Was always great for them to be examples for your young lads, but it made me sort of train in the morning and just put on a good. Because they didn't want you to be stopping it every time to teach, you know, somebody how to break a line or transition.
I think that came from my experience as well. That was sort of my coach reversal philosophy was in the afternoon when you went out and really coached and at times would be up to five o', clock, you know, in the sun. And it was great because that was you really doing your coaching and putting your imprint on these players individually and sometimes as a team as well, which would help them. But certainly individually was a thing.
[00:59:08] Speaker B: This may sound like, sound like a silly question, but it will make sense. But what attributes can you not coach?
[00:59:14] Speaker A: Oh, definitely desire and the. Whatever you want to call it, resilience, the bounce back ability.
And that's when you can only I think, and I still do it to this day because life is full of disappointments, you know, so that's how they react to that.
I know it's a different generation now. I'm learning that for myself, especially working with the academy kids as young as what we've got and as coaches all the time about that. I keep going back to the social worker side, but most definitely there's no day goes by that Armstrong's and Andy Robertson's as examples just because they're in and they're apart now. It's the levels they've reached. But they didn't get that with the disappointments that they've had, you know, you didn't want them to have that disappointment. You didn't hear them again, you know. So I think it's great that that bounce back ability, it's hard to coach. You could use people as an example. I think it's doing to them and their inner strength.
[01:00:11] Speaker B: Two opposites in a sense of mentality. Resilience and desire.
[01:00:14] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I suppose you could call it desire as well.
I go back to Paul and Robble who had that in abundance. Mark, they had that resilience, they've had that, you know, dedication, desire to focus on five years from now, six years from now and watch other players go with the first team, watch other players getting scored. Scotland 17s, 18s, 19s, you know, it's not about that. It's what you do long term, you know, and that's a bit that I've always said, can I come for the goats? You know, and even during all the times that United win and still to this day Believe it or not, the relationship I've got, United fans is incredible. And they'll, you know, lord me for making this player.
You know, it's the player that does that.
[01:01:01] Speaker B: And as I say, but it's recognized as well. You can only really give them the tools and give them the experience and the knowledge.
[01:01:07] Speaker A: Probably on your question, that's two or three things that I would say that I think it's quite impossible for us to give them them that's going to
[01:01:14] Speaker B: come within and quite interesting as well. I mean this is probably could be a wider debate in a sense, but so some of those players in that squad, they'll all have had strengths.
Would you focus too much on the weaknesses or would you enhance their strengths better? Or is it 50, 50 or can you spend too much time on someone's weaknesses to the detriment of what their strengths are from your perspective?
[01:01:38] Speaker A: I must admit that's even a learning process that earlier my time, probably more so at Dundee United, I remember looking back on some players, Celtic and my younger days and thought I did focus too much on, you know, he wasn't a good defender because of this I should have enhanced so early on that over time. So I'd like to think by the end and maybe even start my Brigham days, you're a better coach. You know, it's just the way it is. You learn yourself and you didn't always have the answers, even though you were taught by great people 15, 20 years ago.
I know it's a cliche as well, you learn so much for different managers, but you do learn yourself when you're self critical and probably mostly when you look back, that's definitely something that even to the extent I was saying about my training regime, just training in the morning and coaching in the afternoon, that was the same because that came through the experience of learning and that on the question, yeah, that's most definitely.
You've got to keep topping up what to do well and you've got to keep telling them what to do well as well. No focus too much on the weaknesses.
But I would be definitely guilty of that in the early days at United for sure.
[01:02:47] Speaker B: And that squad and other players and even go back to Dundee's a ticket, did they all have belief or did they need a bit of cajoling and a bit of kind of absolutely pushing towards and giving them a bit more confidence?
[01:02:59] Speaker A: I want to say he was a broken man, but he certainly didn't have that confidence.
I think a lot of times.
And again, I'll say it Even now you'll get a lot of players now that have been released for the clubs, they might be seven, they might be eight. I think the first thing you do is build up their confidence, you know, and that's certainly what had seen even with the teenagers that would come across in the past because they might add this. So that's first and foremost you get to know them, obviously you get to know them as people, you get to know their family, you get to know how they're tick. But I think your biggest job is just to install that wee bit of confidence for them and then you learn together in a better environment.
I think immediately when you do that, you build up a good trust and I think once people's got that with the coach, then you're on a winner.
[01:03:41] Speaker B: Confidence is honestly even at the top level now, even from your premiership managers and they talk about players, even your pundits, it's all about, oh well, there's lost confidence or that confidence. It's amazing as obviously ex players, it's amazing how you just feel like you're walking on air when you're just, you're buzzing.
It's going to happen.
So I can understand how it goes other ways.
[01:04:02] Speaker A: Trying to give somebody that is obviously a different something altogether, isn't it?
[01:04:05] Speaker B: But equally as a coach having too much of it.
[01:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.
[01:04:09] Speaker B: I dare say you've seen that in players as well. So fast forward, Stevie. We're now sitting in the the soccer academy. Fantastic facility. Very impressed.
How much would we have given for an indoor facility such as this? And I know it's a family affair with Susan involved, but for the listeners who don't know, give us a brief insight into what the academy is about and obviously what you hope to achieve from the academy.
[01:04:36] Speaker A: I think first and foremost, again, if you'd asked me five, six years ago, would have been doing something like this again, like thinking about my coaching in general, 20 years ago, I wouldn't have. So it sort of fell upon my lap after leaving United and going to breaking part time guy called Fred Castoria who runs Showcase Famous and this building now at Manhattan Box. So many things that go on here. But part of his idea was a thing called Skills Academy that was started up about five years ago which you know, evolved into Stevie Campbell Football Academy and came away from what you would call the charity Showcase the street in terms of being an employee to now have sole control of the business again.
I'm learning as a businessman, as I go on more than anything.
Got over 400 kids for the age of 4 up to about 20 and that we've got goalkeepers, we've got girls classes, you know, we've got, I'm not going to say beginners classes but there's no any like, you know, you're not good enough to come in, anybody comes in. But what we also have on top of the day, 22 classes, it's 18 what we call elite classes which is obviously a wee bit more expensive. But we've got good coaches here, older coaches like myself, Keith Gibson at 6, etc. Who marry up with a younger coach, university graduates, etc.
People that are maybe working at grassroots level and Sunday leagues etc. So we're working at that level. We've got plenty that have went on to the clubs obviously because especially from the elite coaching side that we do, we bring our knowledge to that and it's built up, it's built up even in terms of numbers and amount of classes that we've got.
Brilliant facility as you can see as a businessman. It's not like I'm going to use the long term plan. What I do is we've thought about, do we go and take teams into the league? That's something that we've thought about before. No writing it off. But the Biden thing for me is it's a much more childhood vibe, you know, I'm sounding like David Brent obviously but it's a much more childhood vibe in terms of it's know the nitty gritty of professional football where it's 90 hours a week obviously. My wife's working there, Susan as well and I do spend time working but I've got a great family, you know, work, life balance that I've got much more time off. It's strange that it's for the first time for 1985, I'll finish at 1 o' clock on Saturday after four elite classes and I don't go to a professional game, you know, first time in 30 odd years.
I'll always watch professional game. I'll always look for old teams and enormous amount of people, players playing. I'll look on the TV and see loads at the end of Pride, which is great but it's just such a more chill dude thing.
We've got plans to expand things in the future. We're going to do camps elsewhere up Numberdeen, up to Lunkerte. We'll continue to do that but it's just a happy place. You know. The best thing I said, my coach is the coach. Education is different now, for the coach education at Dundee United, where it was tactical and was, you know, so much having to do this with curriculums and stuff like a curriculum. The best thing for me is seeing the kids running in face with a big smile on their face and they were later running out with the same smile on their face. Having worked hard, met new people, you know, the social side as well. Christmas time, frightening, the amount of presents that we got, you know, were humbled by that kind of thing. Even going into lockdown, you know, my wife and myself and tears with some of the emails that were got. People wanted to still pay their subscription to us to get us through lockdown again. I just think it's building up relationships and it's just a happy place, you know, we're just really happy. We've got great coaches in here, the kids, the parents relationship is brilliant and long may continue.
[01:08:14] Speaker B: So it's good that you. You mentioned that there has been progression. There is. There is a route for progression for
[01:08:19] Speaker A: those players, but it's not the be on end of.
[01:08:21] Speaker B: No, for those players that stand out as well. But is it just. Is it just a case of. With the facility itself being indoors, it's creating an environment, fun, learn, happiness.
[01:08:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:08:31] Speaker B: Bit of joke, work hard.
[01:08:32] Speaker A: Absolutely. That environment. And that's, as I say, the ones that I preach to the coaches, they're coming here, they're not under any pressure. You know, we see them coming in for the first time, they're nervous, they're thinking, what if I make a mistake? Who cares? I keep telling them this is the place to do that, you know, And I must admit, the feedback that we get and the numbers that we get coming, hopefully we're doing something right along with that.
[01:08:54] Speaker B: I'm always conscious, especially with both Dundee clubs and then with some of those players we mentioned earlier, a lot of them are not from the media region. But is there still enough talent locally that you see, is there still enough of a pool there? Is there still enough of a hunger between the young lads wanting to play?
[01:09:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the future's bright. I'm always quite optimistic when I look at that. And as I say, we've got over 20 and I've entered the country, had more than that. Now that are in at the clubs as well, you know, doing the sort of dual thing. Funnily enough, we usually lose them, if that's the right word, but the club's dead and they'll take them on, but we don't mind that at all. There's loads of people that Keep saying, oh, could we keep doing what you used to? Even I'm saying, well, it's maybe not possible if you have three, four nights at Dundee or at Dundee United. But I'm still here for advice, you know, because I could see the journey that they're going to go on, but nah, they're still an enormous, an enormous amount of. Amount of talent. I certainly see it here, I see it elsewhere as well. I do find the time now and again and I put to watch Sunday league games because it's always great to do it but again, I didn't want that to impact too much on my family life because it was something that I did all the time. Sunday and that Saturday for one o' clock seems to be almost like a recharge of batteries and a rest day. You talked about being in Dormark and I joke about this but, you know, there was days at St Andrews, you know, imagine that wind and the rain and the freezing that. I'm so happy that now I'm coaching indoor for 95% of the time. That comes with age as well, but I've certainly still got the passion and I'd like to think I'll still be that for a good 10 to 20 years yet before I retire. But I think SEFA will be what I'll do, you know, for the rest of my coaching life. I think it's 14 now, jobs that I've either went or not done in the professional game over the sort of five years. Most of them travelled here, there and everywhere, which I would never do again.
But I'm just happy doing what I'm doing and just want to grow this a wee bit and let the kids continue.
[01:10:49] Speaker B: I think we've chatted, yeah, just about finishing as to you, but I think we've chatted before.
You found where you want to be. You found kind of happiness and kind of like a bit of, like you said, work, life, balance.
And I don't think a lot of people really realize, but there's not a lot of security at times running around different clubs here, coaching jobs here, there's only so many positions and it does affect your family. The longer it goes on, it's stress and it's a worry. So I can understand why now that you've found, now you've put the effort in, now that you've built it.
[01:11:19] Speaker A: Football taught me that, you know, it was exactly that that you just thought and it was really fun to have said that to me as well when I went down Villanes and he was at a Job for about four months on the building site that day he said to me, you want to believe a Friday, you finish and you go probably dead in the morning. You know, it sounds like an unambitious thing, but it's not for me because I think, I think I put enough into it and I think I was, you know, got a good enough track, right, as shall we say, in terms of helping people's lives for the sort of 20 odd years with both clubs that I think it was time to wind down a bit, albeit when I got on that pitch, you wouldn't think that.
[01:11:53] Speaker B: But I think you've still got the best of both worlds world too. That's where the balance comes in. Family and still got the passion for the culture and a progression for the kids.
[01:12:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you're almost passing them on to the professionals now to go and take the next step.
[01:12:06] Speaker B: I've got a last question for you because I kind of started early on about.
[01:12:09] Speaker A: I probably rambled on as it always.
[01:12:12] Speaker B: It's been enjoyable. But I asked you earlier about Stevie Campbell, the player. Looking back, how do you view that now? I know you've still got plenty of years left in you as a coach and probably a mentor as well, but coming back to those early days, the youth team at Dundee and then going up to Inverness, coming into Dundee United, how do you view the young Stevie Campbell as a coach then compared to now? Are you critical of yourself? I'm not saying, look, I'm not doing regrets, I'm just thinking that how have you developed? Because essentially the players, a lot of the players are only as good as what the coaches are at times as well. And how have you developed now to there? So the players now at the academy are probably going to get the best.
[01:12:48] Speaker A: Davey Campbell, of course. Of course. Well, they'll get the best older far. Stevie came with less hair, that's for sure.
And they're forever bringing in 40s of me. And the days when my boy said that other day, Stevie, my dad told me, you long ginger hair, curly at the back. I says, yeah, that was 1987, but let's not go there. Yeah, of course, of course. I think just as you develop as a person, you look at things differently. And certainly in the coaching world, you know, all your aforementioned people that had the privilege of working with the Lord, you know, so you learn so much for them. So that's what the kids are getting now. That's Stevie Campbell, you know, who's such a wealth of knowledge compared to the Stevie Campbell that walked in to be mesmerized by Jockey Scott and Archie Knox.
I think Archie said to my mum and dad when I signed it, Dundee, you know, you'll come here.
He was spot on. I did. You know, in the days where it was, you know, you could have that Hardman approach, shall we say?
Kids have changed dramatically, society has changed dramatically, so we've got to change, in a sense for that. So although that's the difference, Stevie Campbell, who's teaching them and as I say, are much more knowledgeable. I'm still learning, you know, I'm still learning because the kids are so different and every day is different and every class is different and here. So you still have that challenge.
You've got to be on your toes and you've got to be up to date with what's going on as well. But I would just say that they keep me young, you know how to do. Some of. Some of the parents just ask where I get my energy for. But sometimes you won't come in and feel tired, but the minute you step on, there could be a 70 year old, it could be a 17 year old and you just see what. See how they're enjoying it and you just want to inspire them again. And as I say, I'll keep doing that. But, yeah, of course, I'm a difference to Ecammophy then, but much more, much more.
[01:14:29] Speaker B: I think children are infectious, especially when they're playing sport.
[01:14:33] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[01:14:34] Speaker B: Because they kind of lose themselves. Themselves lose their inhibitions and it's just natural.
[01:14:37] Speaker A: I actually laugh sometimes, you know, I forget how competitive Em is when you start seeing how competitive they are. And of course, there's no league here, there's no team. We're not going to. But when we have three games at the end, they want to win. And I'm telling the Camden. And that's laughable for me to be saying that for how I acted on the touchline or on the pitch at times, you know, but again, that just comes with your experience of there's other parts that apart from them, you know,
[01:15:03] Speaker B: look, I'm sure they'll lap up and enjoy it. I mean, personally, Stevie, I mean, obviously we've been friends for a while, a lot of mutual friends as well. And I personally, I would, I give you a huge thanks for allowing me a bit more of an insight and the listeners into how Academy is run. The challenges, the benefits, the successes, obviously, ongoing success for yourself as well. And once again, again, I just cannot thank you enough. So a pleasure to see you again, sir.
[01:15:29] Speaker A: Thank you very much, and it was a pleasure doing it. I hope it's enjoyable for the listeners.
